The Curse of Flesh and the Shadowlands

Do all robots go to heaven, or was it the Curse of Flesh that made ex-robots eligible for the Shadowlands? If so, should we reflect on the idea if the Curse of Flesh, the curse of mortality, really stems from the Void, or if it might be connected to the power of Death, which is a thing now?

It’s not that clear how the Void is actually supposed to have benefited from this curse, while it seems to have increased the number of individuals bound to the Death-realm quite nicely.

Just looking for open azerothoian stories that could be tackled in Shadowlands, and it just felt like this one could be one of them.

Looks like all “magical” souls go to their respective plane to reconstitute.

It’s hard to say what makes a mortal soul actually “mortal”. So far it seems to me that it’s a combination of influences of Death magic and time (not sure exactly how time and Order are related, given that all the time stuff in the main timeline could be traced to Aman’Thul alone). Some extra details:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/619631234?t=0h36m50s

Plus, the connection of the soul and the body sustained by Life.
© http://lorekeeper.net/en/maldraxxus-shadowlands-and-beyond-interview-with-steve-danuser

Given how easy the devs are currently with using ret-cons, anything could be. In the previous backstory curse of flesh was not unique. The same happened of on Draenor because of the effect of Life (maybe spirit?) on the local titan-related creatures.

The target is largely similar, what and how happened is mostly the same. The main difference is that on Draenor it happened directly, but on Azeroth titan-forged were created via the Forge of Wills by “using” the life essence of the slumbering titan. And the curse itself was applied via the Forge of Wills.

Which makes it possible to tie the curse (at least in the way it was used) to the Azeroth’s life essence, that one to the ordered part of her Dream, and that way - to the influence of Life or spirit.

Maybe. Because the current changes in the lore might throw it all out of the window and we’ll have a different info that will negate the former.

In the current iteration of the backstory, the cosmo forces are not really something separate. The devs created a system where they simultaneously fight each other but no1 could be defeated. So, it’s all pointless and there are no stakes in the events, but who cares, I suppose.

In Agthia's Memory
Keeper Mnemis:
It is an eternal tug of war between the cosmic forces of existence.
They constantly vie for power over each other but if one fell, all worlds would fall into chaos.

Another thing to note, there seemingly is no isolated Death overall, it’s a Life-Death system:

Depends, once again, on the iteration of the backstory.

In the former, if the core of the idea would be, say, what is stated in Chronicles, there would be:

In their natural state, the void lords exist outside reality. Only the most powerful of these entities can manifest in the physical universe, and only for limited amounts of time. To maintain their presence in reality, the void lords must consume untold amounts of matter and energy.

Which then would combine well with the supposed actions of the Old Gods:

These malignant entities serve the void lords, and they live only to transform the worlds they infest into places of despair and death.

More “death” = more anima flow. And anima is a potent “energy source”.

In the current iteration of the lore, to get the idea, you would need to get through the broker quests. Tl;dr would be that Oribos is an “engine” at the core of the “machine of Death”, with the Arbiter being its heart (or in its heart); the whole thing is a part of some bigger design created by the 1st Ones.

So the Void / Shadow might be after other parts of the “grand design” and the Shadowlands might be a gateway to it. In this scenario the flow of souls is a “tether” or a road to get a foothold in the plane formerly placed behind some kind of veil™.

The Shadowlands could’ve been a great source "tool to move forward many dropped plot lines of the past and build up new elements in the story. Just Eonian Archives to me looks like a source of many opportunities.

Instead, Shadowlands barely makes use of the familiar stories and characters, and when it does, it’s frequently either as a plot device, or for the ret-con purposes.

I mean, the expansion is not over so far. Maybe? Do not get hopes high, and then there might be fewer disappointments.


gl hf

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Thanks for the reply. Well-sourced like usual. :+1:

So we are assuming that titan robots necessarily have some kind of soul? Because they are derived from Azeroth’s soul’s power? Is that specific to machines made from the Forge of Wills, or should I assume that my Lifelike Mechanical Frog, which has some Life essences in in its blueprint, would have a soul as well? Maybe I should cull it before the Curse of Flesh makes the lifelike frog a living frog!

That just makes the “the voidies did the curse of flesh” thing just more dissonant, doesn’t it?

Sure, that’s why I’m throwing the Shadowlands in there. I am well aware that the point in time they pick the topic up is a much better predictor of new cosmic information than the story that came before. The Shadowlands are what’s happening right now, so dev attention and twists will revolve about their totally great current idea. And if it doesn’t happen during Shadowlands… it won’t be tied to it no matter if it makes sense.

Not necessarily with a similar mechanism, though. The Draenor history actually kind of makes sense. In a world full of connective spirit, the more extreme creatures more or less mixed over time, and became something in-between. We have Life, we have Spirit, we have Order, life forms make sense. And maybe something similar might have happened for azerothian natives like trolls and tauren, who knows.

For the titanforged’s minds we have “baby titan juice” mixed with Yogg-Saron’s super secret voidy ingredient. I guess baby titan juice certainly includes Order stuff and Spirit stuff. It might have some Life stuff. But that was already all in the original titanforged recipe. Yoggy, the self-styled god of death supposedly changed something here. And whatever that was certainly wasn’t the same mechanism as we had on Draenor.

Sure, it is. Now that we’ve talked about that, let’s continue.

Is that a necessary connection, though? That Life and Death ARE interwined doesn’t really mean the same as saying they HAVE TO be intertwined. And even if ther is always Life in Death, that wouldn’t necessarily mean that there is Death in Life. I guess your idea here is that establishing a connection to Life is enough to explain a connection to Death? Considering how even greater creatures of Life seem to go through Ardenweald?

Well, but looking at it like that, are you suggesting that Yoggy manipulated the titanforged recipe to make them creatures of Life, rather than Order, because the Void saw a viable pathway in corrupting Life (as they are doing in the Nightmare) that they didn’t see in trying to convert them to the void directly? I guess that makes some sense, but that would mean that the Curse of Flesh wasn’t actually of the Void, just created by a creature of the Void.

I guess that makes as much sense as anything else.

Well… I guess that might be half of an explanation.

I’m not buying any assumption that the Curse of Flesh created consumable power where there was none before. I’m a big fan of conservation of power, even in fantasy, and we’d have a heck of a lot of new worldbuilding problems if magical perpetuum mobiles were actually possible in WoW.

But if we stick to “their visions told them that the curse could lead to more/better opportunities in the future”, and that some of those opportunities included harvesting Anima, which for some reason was more easy to aquire than the power within the titanforged, I guess that makes enough sense.

Damned augurs…

I actually don’t care that much, but it was something to think about for a moment. :man_shrugging:

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Depends on who to believe.

Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron:
All places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured.

afaia there is no info about where the souls are coming from. If the most are “recycled”, I did not see regular mortals being reborn. So new mortal souls have to come from somewhere. And some kind of force “splits” a lot of them, mortal and some “magical” souls, across time lines. Both are a mystery, but maybe I missed something.

It might be possible. And judging by varaljar, at least to a degree it might be possible to turn a “flesh” creature into a “somewhat titan-forged”. Which might be either interesting, or inconsistent - depends on the dev intention, I suppose.

It does. Inconsistency of the execution is a common theme in the game.

Well, we got from “Draenor is free” to “that conflict did not go away” when alt-draenor and the “new vision” of what the Light is, became “needed” to the devs. So, we might go back to the Shadowlands from time to time in the future.

True, there is little information about the titan presence and facilities on Draenor.

I have a hunch he could make use of the Draenor “know how”. But I might be completely wrong on that part.

I mean, the concept of “balance” and interconnection of the cosmological influences is sort of important for the new vision of WoW cosmology.

I guess it was not necessary for me to say that I am not a fan of revisionism.

It looks like it, and there might be no Death without Life. It might be cycle chosen as the new foundation of the “universe”.

In ToT Ra-den talks about anima and vita. Anima is clear - it’s most “pure” version could be found in the plane of Death aka the Shadowlands.

Vita is depicted as “lightning”. Lightning in WoW is a nature magic. Nature magic is a “part” of Life and the ordered part of the Dream.

So, mixing together, “anima” and “vita” might be a source for the powers of “creation and destruction” (linked together by Ra-den, in Before the Storm novel, and somewhere else in mentioned by Vol’jin).

The idea is that there seems to be no “Death” or “Life”, but in the current cosmology there is the “Life-Death” cycle / connection / whatever.

I might be wrong in my interpretation though.

Currently I am not sure what to say about it. There is the notion of the 1st Ones. Xal’atath talked about naaru returning to their masters. There was a quote (not sure if used) from Il’gynoth about us sharing a master with him (them?).

So, maybe alterations of that kind are something to be expanded upon in the future. We’re going to have a “Guardian of the First Ones” or something like that as a boss in the next raid. And a functioning artifact of these “progenitors” used by and altered the last boss of the new dungeon. Maybe some hints could be there.

How are the alt-timelines created? It increases greatly the amount of anima collected by the mortal souls. Where would this anima / energy come from?
:man_shrugging:

The Eternal Traveler
Xolartios:
Mortal lives are so fragile… and yet, any one of them can alter the fabric of reality.

For some reason mortality enables some odd opportunities. Given that in the 3 sisters comic “all possibilities” are mentioned explicitly, that might be something else to consider.


gl hf

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Curse of flesh benefits not only void but light too, they are one and same cosmic force just two sides of a coin. It is a part of entrophy, everything will decay. Light creates and void destroys, they are needed for universe to exist and be reborn again eventualy. Void at the end consumes everything, there will be only singularity left, then a flash of light stated in chronicle will appear and new universe will form again. Perhaps we as players/heroes in the lore will at some point try to stop this cicle somehow if it is even possible. Also i think only beings this cicle do not apply for are First ones, if they indeed created all cosmic forces they must exist somewhere beyound all reality in transcendental states.

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