The future of mythic plus

[Alumage-draenor]

1 ) Mythic plus naming and lore revised :

Cool idea, definitely not something i think is needed, but definitely not something i would be against.

One of my main problems with M+ is that each M+ is the exact same, I feel like blizzard should bring the dungeons more into life by changing mob placements, opening hallways / new doors / hidden paths / new type of mobs in every instance of a dungeon.

This is exactly what i don’t want. It sounds all fine and dandy for a +10, but when you are pushing your limits having a new mob show up with a new ability you can’t know beforehand and it straight up kills you, that’s a problem. When you start pushing limits and make keys in time by less than a minute, then introducing RNG is an absolute horrible idea. This is already a thing in waycrest manor, and it is easily one of the worst things when you get down right or top right, don’t introduce that much RNG into M+.

Adding unpredictable things does not make it more reactive. Either you make the new mobs low impact to not just kill their run outright due to lack of knowledge, or you make them high impact so that they kill runs until you know all of them and then we’re back in the same boat.

Like just don’t introduce RNG into a system that has rankings, it is such a bad idea to do so. Like imagine it as a top player. You go through a lot of effort, finally get a good key you can time, it could be the world first +27 or whatever, but then you get bad RNG and now you have to time your 26 to see if you can get a good 27, absolutely horrible.

Also like I mentioned a cool thing blizzard can do is add new sections to the dungeon, open new doors / hidden hallways, wouldn’t be fun if the seasonal affix that a new hidden area in each dungeon is now open and a boss awaits inside?

Yes who wouldn’t like an RNG boss suddenly on a +20 tyrannical key, i can’t imagine anything better.

These changes aim to make the dungeons more exciting to tackle and cut of things like meta comps, predetermined routes etc etc.

It is not gonna change the fact that we have metas, not even in the slightest. If you do this players will map out everything that can happen and the best comp will be what is best at dealing with m+ things in general, you’re never gonna change your comp just because there is a chance something might happen.
It is gonna tackle predetermined routes, but that is something i really like, but i agree that it is a preference.

People would now want versatile comps and start thinking of strengths and weaknesses, it would be interesting if a scenario like this happened

I mean that is exactly what we have now. Rogues and DHs are versatile and can deal with pretty much anything in m+, or can deal with by far the most things out of any class.

Mythic plus should really be more skill based, atm the way M+ operates is that everything can be neglected and face tanked, the higher you go up in the ladder the more important abilities become and not dealing with them becomes problematic and can wipe the group.

This tells me that you haven’t really played m+ or at least not pushed your limits, which strongly brings down the validity of the entire post. You have only seen the faceroll part and then i completely understand you, as i said earlier, for 10s all your ideas are good, but they are not for pushing and completely ruins the competitive integrity of pushing keys on live.

It could be fun to be added a an option to randomize your key, but definitely not making it forced.

Added complexity can be many things, new special mobs, new mob abilities, some mobs become CC immune

Sounds like you really like beguiling here

a certain boss gains some abilities and so on

Again nothing better than being on a +20 tyrranical key and then suddenly the boss has a new ability. Either it is something you couldn’t know and you likely key is dead, or it is predictable and then nothing is really changed.

this would make skill more valuable and reduce frustration in being face to face with numbers.

Oh boy did you not play legion. By far most bosses in m+ dungeons are more skill based and don’t have unavoidable one shots. I think BFA did a great job here compared to legion where most bosses had this and i think all dungeons had at least 1. It’s still not perfect and high FH feels bullsh*t if you get double eudora shot, but you can skillfully play around it.

4 ) Mythic Plus and loot :

I really like the overall idea, so that you can farm the item you want and then upgrade it and that socket doesn’t need to appear on it, but you get an item to put a socket in any item you want, that is so great.
A few things tho.
I played Season 2 without raiding, so i know the struggle of gearing only in m+.
It sounds like you want this to be a slow system, and i can understand that, but if you make it too slow, m+ players are gonna be outgeared on the in the first 2 weeks and denied from all mythic plus, which feels really bad, but that is not the real issue.
It sounds like you want M+ gear to be capped under HC, which is a horrible idea imo, especially if it can’t even TF. I think a +10 is as hard as any of the 6 first bosses on HC EP, i think it should reward the same loot.
Also, it sounds like you don’t want it to go beyond HC at all, which just makes the gear useless if it can’t go to mythic quality, but letting it actually go to mythic quality in your systems, kind of makes mythic obsolete in a gearing sense, and i feel like that is not something you want.

Anyways, i am totally down with your system, i think it is great, as long as the gear can keep being upgraded to at least mythic quality, cause else it just makes loot in m+ non existent if it is also slow.

5 ) M+ and affixes :

Agree with most of the stuff here. I would like more affixes, but i don’t like the idea of risk/reward affixes, as i think they introduce too much swing in a key, but it depends on how you want it, i could both think of good risk/reward affixes, but also bad ones, so could you give an example?

[Hínáta-kazzak (Hínáta)]

Like just don’t introduce RNG into a system that has rankings, it is such a bad idea to do so. Like imagine it as a top player. You go through a lot of effort, finally get a good key you can time, it could be the world first +27 or whatever, but then you get bad RNG and now you have to time your 26 to see if you can get a good 27, absolutely horrible.

I think the esport part of the M+ is what’s taking it down the wrong path, sure if dungeons were insanely RNG and everytime you go in everything’s randomized it would really suck especially at pushing high keys, or if you’ve joined a dungeon and a new NPC was there and messed your team up.

What I’m talking about here isn’t that, but something near it and more controlled to give an example, Pack placements can be slightly different, pack npcs can be different and from a pool of NPCs known to the dungeon but not in a way where the pack would be extremely impossible.

To give an example think of freehold’s 3 packs that each consists of 3 mobs.

An instance of the dungeon would have one of the gunners replaced by the fixate dwarf, the bruiser could be replaced by an oarsmen or one of the rogues could be replaced by the human outlaw that charges a spot and stuns everything in his path.

The mobs are of the same relative strength, however dealing with them becomes different, as you run the dungeon more and more you will become accustomed to the dungeon and know how to deal with each mob, but since the packs aren’t fixed and may come in different sizes the dungeon would feel more live and decision making and shot calling would make the dungeon easier/harder for the player.

As for the new mob thing, the idea is that for each dungeon there should be a pool of mobs, say for example 50 mobs, you may not see some of the mobs in an instance of the dungeon, but you can encounter them in other instances of it, the mobs should of course be of appropriate difficulty so you wouldn’t replace for example the crocodiles in Toldagor’s starting area with the armored brutes before the last boss.

Yes who wouldn’t like an RNG boss suddenly on a +20 tyrannical key, i can’t imagine anything better.

Probably, but if it’s something like a seasonal affix that is always there or from level x and above I think it would be much more appreciated and better.

Because simply increasing numbers would make it a numbers game and like in legion it would be a point where players don’t feel like they can progress simply because the numbers don’t support it, while this isn’t necessarily a bad thing it shouldn’t be the norm from +10 and onwards.

It is not gonna change the fact that we have metas, not even in the slightest.

I too don’t think the meta will change with just this, but it certainly would lessen it. The problem with metas is a design and community based.

Design wise because there is no way in hell an Arms warrior is better than a Demonhunter the effectiveness gap between the two is huge.

Community wise because an Arms warrior can do a +10 and a +15 with no problem, but people for some reason refused a 2k+ io scored warrior with high item level back in season 2 from +15 keys, even now with 2k io S2 and 1.5k S3 and 446 ilvl my warrior as a dps is being refused from a lot of +15s.

This tells me that you haven’t really played m+ or at least not pushed your limits

I think you’re probably off on this one, people shouldn’t have to do a +27 intime in order to give a valid post, and M+ in general shouldn’t be designed for the top of the top players.

Imo M+ should stay true to it’s original purpose, a fun way to tackle dungeons and not leave them irrelevant, tuning dungeons in such a way were they are afk drivebys on lower levels and numbers and human error game at the top difficulty is not the way to go.

It sounds like you want M+ gear to be capped under HC

Absolutely not, but what I want is that M+ players shouldn’t cap on gear in the first week and then depend on RNG immediately, rather they build and progress on it until they reach mythic level quality.

To put a timeplan let’s say a season is every 3 months, someone doing 1-3 +2s a day should be 415 by the first month, 425 by the 2nd month and 430 by the 3rd month.

Someone doing 1-3 +10s a day should be 425 by the first month, 435 by the 2nd and 440 by the third.

Someone doing 1-3 +15s a day should be 435 by the first month, 445 by the 2nd month and 450 by the third month.

Someone doing 1-3 +20s a day should be 445 by the first month, 450 by the 2nd and 455 by the third month.

Agree with most of the stuff here. I would like more affixes, but i don’t like the idea of risk/reward affixes, as i think they introduce too much swing in a key, but it depends on how you want it, i could both think of good risk/reward affixes, but also bad ones, so could you give an example?

A simple example of an existing risk/reward system is bursting, you can risk dying at the cost of saving time or you can lower the dps and waste time by waiting for the ticks to go off, mostly everyone can help the healer with this by using defensives / etc but that also comes with the risk that these are not there for the next pack.

Things I have in mind about risk reward probably lies in the realm of the bursting affix.

an Affix could be pack size related, mobs gain 2% increased damage and speed per each mob in combat with the party.

Thanks for your feedback friend, I may have been overexcited about writing the post but that’s because I really do like M+, I realize not everything I say is perfect, rather a general idea of what I think should be done.

[Húbris-silvermoon]

Mythic+ is a successful activity implemented to this game yea. It is good for players like me who has half potato pcs hence cannot raid properly. In fights like Za’qul my fps is 60 but in Dazar’alor I struggled alot dunno why exactly, zone difference I suppose.

Still weekly chest must require an intime at +10 or above key for that max level reward. Over-rewarding casuals is not a good thing. That is the first thing that must be changed. I don’t know about other mathematic related stuff, I hate maths, you discuss it.

[Alumage-draenor]

What I’m talking about here isn’t that, but something near it and more controlled to give an example, Pack placements can be slightly different, pack npcs can be different and from a pool of NPCs known to the dungeon but not in a way where the pack would be extremely impossible.

Something i thought about after writing my comment was exactly what you’re saying with having mobs you know appear more randomly so you still know how to deal with them, and i think that is much better than what i thought you wrote, but to some extent i still don’t like it.
First off on that first pull in FH where you do all 3 packs, that is already a pack where 1 mistake can easily be a wipe, but then you have to either slow down and read the names to figure out what mechanics will be, you will have to play it reactively and see what comes up or you have to read the names while blasting which is really a pain.
Another major thing is a system like this could introduce too many key interrupts, meaning that you can’t handle it or at least not with less than 2-3 melee, which just brings melee more forward in the meta.
I could agree to a switch up where every week the packs could change a little bit, but i still disagree that it should be on a dungeon to dungeon basis, cause i really enjoy the part of m+ where you can map out when you want CDs, and which target is my focus target in this pack for int and which is main target for focus damage, and i just don’t think introducing any large amount of gameplay impactful RNG is good in a system that is meant to push you down to seconds within the timer.

Probably, but if it’s something like a seasonal affix that is always there or from level x and above I think it would be much more appreciated and better.

It is better, but i still don’t like the idea of extra bosses, and forcing it beyond a certain level doesn’t sit right with me either.
No matter how you try to balance it, some bosses are easier, and on high tyrranical keys, having RNG which bosses are spawned, is not a good idea imo.

Because simply increasing numbers would make it a numbers game and like in legion it would be a point where players don’t feel like they can progress simply because the numbers don’t support it, while this isn’t necessarily a bad thing it shouldn’t be the norm from +10 and onwards.

I think BFA has actually done this quite well, and it does not at all feel like a numbers game. In season 2 i hit my limit around 22, where i felt like i could not get past that, but it was not due to not being able to survive the numbers game like legion, but it was rather that we didn’t do enough damage to get through all that HP in time, so we had to change up our strategy or comp before we could get further, and i like that. It is not a numbers game like legion where you just die, but rather boss abilities scale slow enough so that you have to get really really high till you can’t get around it.

I too don’t think the meta will change with just this, but it certainly would lessen it. The problem with metas is a design and community based.

I think it will actually worsen it, since currently you can take off-meta picks if they have useful niches that you can’t count on, but if you make it not predictable what is gonna happen, then you are gonna take what can deal with almost any situation, which is DH + 2xrogue.

Community wise because an Arms warrior can do a +10 and a +15 with no problem, but people for some reason refused a 2k+ io scored warrior with high item level back in season 2 from +15 keys, even now with 2k io S2 and 1.5k S3 and 446 ilvl my warrior as a dps is being refused from a lot of +15s.

This is discussed so often, and it always comes down to, that people don’t want something that can do it, they want the best at it. People in pugs are selfish, they want their key done, and to ensure the highest success rate, they take the best classes. Arms can do +15, but a DH or rogue is always gonna be better.
And a lot of the time, at least from my experience as the one declining them, the one who hosts the group is likely not a meta dps, since then they could just join keys, so if you already have something off-meta then you definitely want rogue + DH to support that most of the time, you most certainly don’t want 2 off-meta picks if you wanna reliably time it.
But all this is besides the point.

I think you’re probably off on this one, people shouldn’t have to do a +27 intime in order to give a valid post, and M+ in general shouldn’t be designed for the top of the top players.

Nah i didn’t mean it like that, that you had to push the highest of the highest to know what you’re talking about, what i meant was that it seems like you haven’t pushed your limit, whatever that might be. You said you can just facetank abilities, but i know when i push keys, there are rarely ever an ability i can face tank without dying. And it tied in with the feeling that your entire post felt like it was written with low keys like 13 or below in mind, with lots of room for improvisation and overall great lack of pre planned strategy, and that comment just sounded like, you weren’t really thinking about higher keys.

way were they are afk drivebys on lower levels and numbers and human error game at the top difficulty is not the way to go.

I would take that over an RNG game any day of the week tbh.

Absolutely not, but what I want is that M+ players shouldn’t cap on gear in the first week and then depend on RNG immediately, rather they build and progress on it until they reach mythic level quality.

Then i definitely think it is better, and i can totally get behind this system.

A simple example of an existing risk/reward system is bursting, you can risk dying at the cost of saving time or you can lower the dps and waste time by waiting for the ticks to go off, mostly everyone can help the healer with this by using defensives / etc but that also comes with the risk that these are not there for the next pack.

I totally disagree here, bursting is not a risk/reward affix. A risk/reward affix should have both something positive and negative, but bursting is strictly negative.
Bursting is not a fun affix at all, it artificially slows down the dungeon way to much, and is not controllable enough, at least not with all comps, to the point where it is more a nuisance, than something you can outskill.
A risk/reward affix should be something where you take a risk and actually get rewarded, not in the form where you do the dungeon as fast as you can, but risk getting overrun by the affix. Something like a random rune would spawn that makes you take 100% increased damage, but deal 30% increased damage or something, i think that could be cool, but i don’t wanna see such an affix honestly.

Thanks for your feedback friend, I may have been overexcited about writing the post but that’s because I really do like M+, I realize not everything I say is perfect, rather a general idea of what I think should be done.

Yea me too, i came at you a bit aggresively, sorry about that, happens when you spend too much time on the forums XD
I appreciate that we can have a really civil discussion about this.

[Khanzod-defias-brotherhood]

Disable your add ons, stop watching tactics video and stop reading guides.
When i m performing magic i dont start by explaining how things work. Idk why people expect things to go differently whent hey have addons telling them where to go, what pack to pull, who to cc and when and on what. You took away all form of decision making and gave it to a program.

The feeling of human error is 100% accurate a bot could do the job because you have already elimiated any form of decision.
As long as certain players use such tools then they will always mechanically feel that way. Even without them i got bored of the same dungeons over and over but i would have burnt out way faster with add ons on.