The game got too complex to be enjoyable for me

Community General Discussion
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As someone who initially liked the new talent trees and class changes, I have come to hate nearly all of them after maxing out a few classes and testing them out both at max level, and in endgame content. I feel like the game has gotten too complex for me to enjoy playing at endgame, and I have been playing and raiding in every single expansion except for WoD and barring a few patches.

Granted I don’t have as much time to dedicate to the game now compared to a few years ago when I was playing more actively, but there is just so much near-mandatory bloat with every spec, coupled with so many mechanics going off in keys that it just makes playing the game exhausting.

I first capped an outlaw and got 2.4k rating in M+, but the game was impossible to play without addons to micro manage Roll the Bones buffs, and whether they’re bad, along with Ambush procs and other stuff.

Then I tried Havoc after seeing clueless comments from people claiming it’s still a braindead class, only to find that momentum is the only viable playstyle and that it has 9+ active rotation buttons excluding big CDs and defensives.

Then I tried Fury which I mained and enjoyed through BFA, and it was again, more convoluted with a tier set bonus that requires addons to properly track and utilize, and it again has over 8 active combat buttons without CDs/defensives (the lowest number so far).

Now I’m leveling this shadow priest that I played in Nathria and S1, and while it doesn’t seem bad, it already has at least 2 extra rotational buttons compared to SL.

I personally had much more fun in Legion and BFA tbh, the content was still complex enough to be engaging while the classes were simple but enjoyable and felt powerful. GCD change was an awful change, just like the AoE cap in SL, but those are still present and now the game is the most complex it’s ever been when it comes to the player toolkit IMO, maybe second to MoP only.

I know that many people are probably enjoying this wanted the game to get more complex, but it just feels too much for me at this point, especially considering the endgame has also gotten much harder with M+ being the hardest it’s ever been by a large margin.

I feel like there isn’t nearly enough choice for more passive talent builds and that going for as many active buttons as possible always results in a big dps gain for any spec, which isn’t really choice. You shouldn’t have to choose between doing 10-20% less dps and being overwhelmed with buttons, both should perform close to each other so the players can choose what fits their playstyle.

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I’m sorry to say it but it wouldn’t be much fun without the added complexity in endgame. It’s what drives the most competitive players out there and make things much more interesting.

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if you want wow but less complex and way easier, just play classic? u can liteally spam 1 button and top damage.

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Tbh i dont have a problem with the class complex, i have issue with the heroic final boss of each raid being a absolute nightmare for casual guilds, it used to be you could get it done within a month or 2 of release but the last two raids have been a brick wall for a ton of the people and in turn has killed a lot of curve guilds.

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I also think some should be simplified, but fury is definitely not one of them. However, they should not make people have to create weakauras for the tier set. The tier set is the most problematic thing about fury. However, I think the bad thing about fury is the button spam. It’s a little too fast, so fingers hurt long term.

On a sidenote: I actually think mages for example are very very fun to play though despite button bloat, and most importantly: Their rotation is intuitive. It makes sense. Even arcane, despite being complex, is completely intuitive and I can do the rotation with logical reasoning. Regarding button bloat. I don’t like that the game is not enough beginner friendly, but simultaneously mages for example are extremely fun to play, and their way to do damage makes a lot of sense.

So, I ranted often here about complexity, but in the end it’s a middle ground thing. I think shamans for example should be hard-pruned for 2 reasons:
-Shaman dps is not intuitive. There is no logic behind pressing the buttons that glow up, and it feels too reactive.
-Way too many buttons and weird interactions

Same goes for arms warrior. The rotation of arms warrior really follows no logic. It feels completely random. For fury at least, the mission is clear: Generate as fast 80 rage as possible to dump it into rampage without wasting rage by overcapping. That makes fury very clear and intuitive, and the pace does make it hard to play for a lot of people it seems.

So in the end, amount of buttons is not that big of a deal, but it’s all the passives, etc.
I watched a video of MoP pvp out of curiosity, because people bring it up, and I think dragonflight is way way more complex. However, dragonflight pvp is so complex that it’s almost impossible to really understand, who is winning at any given moment. Not sure what people are thinking saying that. Maybe blind nostalgia? No clue. When I play, it’s completely intuitive and reactive.

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I am sorry for you since that sucks abit.

While I agree that some specs have gone abit TOO far in complexity, I do not feel like we are talking about the same thing.

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Imma find it real hard to call hunter complex :face_with_raised_eyebrow::face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Because MoP had no GCD, meaning everything happened alot faster, and the sheer quantity of utility accessible by every class made the game a chess game.

You botg had a answer for every single thing the opponant did and it was the one to screw up that lost basically.

In pve, MoP classes were far more complex

WoW has implemented hand railings into alot of things since, while sure some classes u can go south with. Most classes u can just log and with some thinking can pretty easily get a 70 percentile parse.

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This statement surprises me since they’ve basically just given Legion/BfA/Shadowlands builds to all the classes. It’s known territory; they did that on purpose so that people could get used to the system.

I do get the ‘endgame being too full of mechanics’, though.

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Honestly we should talk about how much of this “complexity” is actual good class design or just effect bloat.

From previous patch to this one I now have to juggle with twice as much buffs just to do the same damage as anyone else, that is not good design in my opinion, nobody should be juggling with 7 buffs to maintain normal DPS while on one of the most APM class/spec while still putting attention to rotation priority and procs.

All of this while most of Outlaw’s best builds are basically a watered down version of Subtlety rogue…

So yes, some classes just have too much bloat on them, but how much of this “complexity” is actually well designed and how much of it is an actual unnecessary amount of effects?

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Wrath Classic is fun. Taking it slow doing everything as I go.

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I know that grasping subtleties is a rare trait on these forums due to all these suggestions, but nowhere in my post did I said I want to spam 1 button.

Those are my only issues with fury basically, and also the fact that ravager is nearly mandatory because I detest using that spells. The cd is long enough for me to forget about using it as soon as it’s up, and planning it ahead to make sure that the tank won’t pull the pack out of it (impossible) is even worse.

I can’t speak for all MoP classes but I raided combat rogue during ToT and a destro lock in SoO, and combat was FAR simpler then than outlaw is now. Destro was also stupid simple but I’m not sure how it plays in DF, might be similar. I’m only talking PvE here, never cared about PvP.

They gave us Legion/BFA/SL builds ALL at once, and you usually can’t opt out of any of these talents without sacrificing a hell of a lot of dps, that’s the problem. All of those expansions individually had fewer buttons in the active damage rotation for most specs, Legion and BFA in particular.

That’s why I dropped the rogue this patch and I’d argue that most of the added bloat doesn’t provide needed complexity aside from forcing you keep track of more stuff. But, if you’re a type of person who likes tracking 4 different 1-minute long CDs and have 10 active rotation buttons with 8 utility spells, then this system is obviously better. I don’t like it because it’s just too much.

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show me one boss from classic where a 1 button class was top dps.

I`ll wait

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ragnaros frost mage rotationlol

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stopped reading after you mentioned fury…

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I dont think the problem is class design to me personally as someone who has taken long breaks in past 3-4 expansions when returning the game just feels a complete mess off what to do what to collect, where to go and how to even get there.

Its such a mess that unraveling what i would have to do in order to get to play with others i most of the times just end up alt-f4 and playing with something that is designed by a game designer and not exel enthusiasts.

You can still just macro modern retail classes to one button and go ham on rose color nostalgia with most of the classes.

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Just go play another game or classic, they aren’t going to change the game to suit, maybe if it was a popular opinion it’d be changed for the next xpac if you were lucky, but balance is probably a bigger topic. So a great prune the xpac after reintroduction of talents it’s extremely unlikely.

Also are you posting on your alts in your own topic.

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Show me how you’re effectively using fury t4 bonus without addons and the comment may not be useless.

You can’t do that on any class much less most of them, or rather do it without your dps being garbage. You’re right about the other stuff because they keep adding stuff that becomes irrelevant in a month all the time.

All the content they added since launch is now useless and nearly dead except for rifts that just came out, and those are only being done because they dug up old existing cosmetics that weren’t used it put them there.

I think it’s very likely actually as stupid as it would be after this revamp, because you can’t build further on this system without making the game unplayable. DF is already more bloated and complex than MoP for many specs, the last expansion that necessitated a prune. Can you really imagine a new talent row for every spec adding 1-2 more active buttons to every class, then another row for the next expansion?

They messed up because they made a system that ramps up in complexity, and their starting point is an expansion that already gives every spec like 10-15 active buttons. The only way forward is a prune or reworking classes all the time to keep the bloat time, which is a bigger waste of dev time than borrowed power.

No lol

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I just want BFA outlaw rogue back.

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https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2000#boss=50672

where do you see frostmage?

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Well said. I even agree about mages. The frost rotation has way too many buttons but the objective is simple and very pleasing to execute: shatter everything.

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