The Horde council is a joke

Lore Story
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From all the characters that a part of the council only Thrall really sticks out. Lets sink that in for a minute. From all the races that are part of the horde, only the Orcs still have the guy that was always supposed to lead them. The rest of them are B-list characters nobody in the greater plot against big bad guys matters.

Trolls lost Vol’jin and Rastakhan.
Tauren lost Cairne.
Undead lost Sylvanas and Nathanos.
Blood Elves lost Kael’thas.
Mag’har Orcs lost AU Durotan.
Goblins lost Gallywix.
Orcs lost many too but at least they have their true leader(Thrall) leading them. But it is not enough. Blizzard should give us back our old leaders so we can feel proud of ourselves again playing the red faction.

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Vol’jin is coming back.

And they still have Baine

Neither Nathanos nor Sylvanas are gone

I can’t remember the playable blood elves having Kael’thas as a leader.

Gallywix isn’t dead either.

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they don’t need to die to be lost. Also Aeula stop the trolling I know it is you hiding behind a sponge nightelf classic avatar.

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[Nice comment]

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I tend to agree with a few points, nice thread

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The Horde shouldn’t exist.

But then frankly neither should this garbage game.

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What points exactly? I’m always open for constructive criticism.

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Kinda agree.

It’s name recognition. Because beyond Vol’jin Rokhan’s literally the only Darkspear of import with a “history” in the franchise. That’s how starved for characters the Darkspear have been and why killing Vol’jin was a horrible idea.

Same for Forsaken with Lillian. And for Goblins with Gazlowe.

We can even argue that the same would apply for orcs. Sarufang’s background came into play years later, but that doesn’t change the fact that his popularity was born out of an ingame meme about an overpowered character mechanic his NPC had back in Classic.
But well, he is now dead too.

And i don’t really feel that much solace in the fact Thrall returned. This is a discount version that abandoned the faction, and went over an entire arch that kinda shat over the portrayal the dude that wore Orgrims armour and hammer, had back when he was introduced.

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excuse me but garrosh is the true orc leader, thrall is just an alliance boot licker.

Also maybe if the writers made baine grow a pair the tauren would play a bigger role in the lore

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Garrosh was a sad orc who missed his daddy and was the worse version out of all the mirror realities :stuck_out_tongue:

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Gazlowe isn’t B-list at all. he is a Wacraft 3 Horde OG, same as Thrall, but everyone seems to hate him because he’s actually a serviceable character and not a comedy scumbag like Gallywix.

also garrosh is dead, sylvanas is poochie, and calia will lead the Forsaken to a place where they stop moaning and being the race for teenage boys who feel angry at the world but can’t articulate the reason why

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Yes, he is.
He is the textbook definition of a secondary and shallow character created exclusively for support roles.
There is almost no backstory beyond his token appearances, no background to speak of, and certainly no depth beyond the traits given to him in order to complement the story driven by the major characters.

Having cameos that go back to past games doesnt change that fact if his development remains in a stagnant state.
He plays in the same league as the rest of B listers. Like Sira, Baelgun, or Samuro. And all these go back to Wc3 too.

And putting him as leading figure, is the sort of desperate move that reeks of running out of recognisable and developed names, and needing to pull any named NPC they can think of.
And in Gazlowes particular case, they had to even ignore most of goblin story to push him to said position.

Do not think they ever were such…
And if they indeed put Calia as their leader, she will lead them to be another discount human race that plays second fiddle for Anduin.

It’s understandable to see said circumstance as a nonissue if you have no interest whatsoever in their story. But for those players that were initially attracted to the Forsaken kind of story, that would be equatable to deleting the race.

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i mean if we’re going to judge every WoW character on this basis then 99% of them are worthless.

gazlowe is the hero bilgewater needs right now, a blank slate so blizz can retool the goblin lore away from comedy scumbag shenanigans into something more fitting for the good-guy faction.

that’s all they ever have been. maybe 1% of forsaken players actually care about the lore, and even these people don’t know it (they were not created to be the conflicted inheritors of lordaeron but rather as a vehicle for Sylvanas’ reappearance in TFT). 29% play forsaken for their racials. 70% play them because they are headbanging zombie edgelords.
they are the joke race. fortunately, with Sylvanas having blasted off again, they can now go into the “side-story” bin alongside boring orcs and do-nothing trolls.

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I didn’t say a B lister is worthless.

There are protagonists and secondaries.

The lack of depth, background, or relevance, makes Gazlowe a secondary.

Being a secondary, or a B lister isn’t a bad thing. For as long as you don’t push him way past their capabilities, and leave them in the place that corresponds to more developed characters.

Yeah, I rather the leadership of an entire race didn’t hinge on a “blank slate”.
Specially if we are to shoehorn him by trashing over one of the core goblin traits such as the Cartel system. Gazlowe isn’t from the playable goblin cartel.

Every interaction we had with Gazlowe leaned on comedy. Much like it also happens with the most “serious” gnome character.
His only distinct value is the fact that he is the one that embodies goblin values the least by being nicer, and caring less about money than the average cartel leader.
Not a good footing in order to sell on the fantasy of the race.

If I wanted a gnome, there is a faction already in place for that.

Why have you shifted from the portrayal of the ingame race, to a not so subtle jab at players?

Yeah, I also make up numbers once in a while.

You seem awfully fixated on making every race be about some “joke”.

Anyway, I doubt the fantasy sold at players regarding the Forsaken was about being neither a joke nor some “emo” as you tag them.
You might want to check on what kind of vibes do they give across their current Silverpine, Hillsbrad, or Tirisfal quests.

Or go back to play your drunk, Irish/Celtic-parody, joke race, and get some quests about drinking beer and beard grooming. :grinning:

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so if he’s not worthless what’s the problem making him leader of goblins then?

blank slates don’t have to stay blank. he can be shaped and coloured to fit whatever theme the writers want to impose upon the goblins from here on out.

right - so he’s a fun character, but not a scumbag. like i said.

and here you are hating him because he’s not a scumbag, also like i said.

the writers are changing the trajectory of horde races away from what they currently are to something different. gazlowe is a blank slate, so he can be coloured to fit that new trajectory. gallywix has history and established character traits, so he can’t. so, y’know… el deleto.

no subtlety involved at all here - and it’s not a dig either. i’ll reiterate what i said earlier, but i’ll rephrase it since you don’t like numbers:

almost everyone picks their race due to aesthetic or mechanical considerations and almost nobody does so due to lore.

that’s just how it is. very few people are picking female Night Elf on the character creation screen because they want to embody the matriarchal warrior archetype that has persisted in Night Elven society since the War of the Ancients. they’re doing it because female Night Elves are really sexy and Shadowmeld is a great racial.

do you think people play Dwarves for any reasons other than the ones you’ve listed?

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:point_down:

Blank slates cannot take the leading role of race’s story. Because if they are blank, then they cannot drive any plot forward.

Gallywix was a fun character, with background, depth, and the traits required to create stories around both him and his Cartel.
The traits that made him a scumbag, were those that are characteristic to any goblin.
Only in his case, were being exploited to be their leader.

If your only argument regarding how Gazlowe is better, leans on how he does not follow said traits, i’ll repeat that i rather they left goblin leadership to an authentic goblin.
If i wanted to play gnome, i have 2 playable races available for that.

Regardless of how you try to simplify the issue here, Gazlowe isn’t a bad candidate because he lacks “scumbag” traits.
He is a bad candidate for leadership because he is a secondary character, without background, known leading skills, and traits that stand against the very core fantasy values that the playable goblin race leans on to.
He has a total lack of exposure and spotlight, zero relevance to the playable cartel, and as only virtue the fact that he is the “least goblin” of all the candidates to the job (that makes him scrap some sympathy points amongst the likes of Baine and Anduin because he is basically another green gnome).

Is that so? Ok.
Then why would Calia change that? Are you implying that on top of a cultural overhaul, the Forsaken need also an aesthetic one?

Yeah, but that’s a pass. A harder one while at it.

You are nobody to go around telling players what they find appealing regarding certain race. And most definitely you are no authority regarding the themes that are to be presented ingame.

Do not know.
But regardless of how i feel about it, i’d never put myself in a position that entitled me to judge the validity of their taste.
And argue that to avoid attracting a “herd of retarded drunkards”, Blizzard should probably change the entire dwarven race and foster stories about the virtues of teetotalism and shaving.

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… but if he has no backstory (your argument) then how do you know what his capabilities are?

gazlowe is a character with provenance. he was around in Warcraft 3. he’s also a blank slate the writers can use to guide the gobbos in a new direction. he is not a B lister.

not if they stay blank. but if they’re like gazlowe they can be moulded into the role.

he wasn’t a fun character. mekkatorque is a fun character. gazlowe is fun. gallywix is just a comedy scumbag, and the only stories you can tell around a comedy scumbag are stories of him being a scumbag.

gazlowe doesn’t have that problem because he has no reala history, so he can be used to tell whatever stories the writers like.

gazlowe is an authentic goblin. the fact he doesn’t fit your definition of an authentic goblin is neither here nor there, because your definition relies on traits the writers are currently in the process of distancing themselves from, namely the corrupt comedy scumbag dynamic.

i mean they’re not going to change the models or mechanics, but the stupid teenage angst and 1950s horror movie crap will likely go away, which is a good thing.

and neither are you, yet here you are trying to tell me goblins can only be like gallywix

in my case it’s not a suggestion - it’s something blizz are actively doing right now, so maybe they agree with me that forsaken were a bad idea and need to be reformed.

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Because we know what he is doing as of now.

Major characters and the story derived from them lean on both what they can do, and the background that tackles what they did.

A blank slate as leading role, means leaving the story of a race in the hands of a literal nobody.
It gets even worse, once you examine that guy in particular and realise the hoops writers have jumped through in order to make this candidate fit into said role.

From a story standpoint, having the Bilgewater be led by a goblin from a different Cartel, makes zero sense.
From a meta standpoint, having a playable race being led by a secondary without notable feats, backstory, background, or depth, makes it even worse.

And no, having some token appearance in some old game doesn’t make the character any more viable if the gap in-between has been filled with a ton of nothingness where development should’ve been.

Kill Tyrande and put Sira in her place, or remove Moira and put Baelgun.
These surely must be better right? They were indeed present in Wc3.

And Gazlowe is a comedy patsy, and the only stories you can tell around a comedy patsy are stories of him being a patsy.
A guy that got scammed and underpaid by his clients, and now had to dump his own cartel to leech on the success of a rival one, while gambling on the goodwill of those surrounding him to back him up.
A guy whose only merit during his screentime, is making friends with some Alpha male that backed him up.

Nope, he is not.
He is noted as an oddity in the novels.

It’s not my description, its the games writers description.

Difference being that i’m describing what the goblin race is about, whereas you seem rather fixated on tagging those players that get behind a certain portrayal of a race ingame.
I’m not the one that created this goblin description:

Shrewd, greedy, and ruthless, goblins have a long-standing reputation for being neutral in the rest of the world, despite the Steamwheedle Cartel allying with the Old Horde during the Second War and the Bilgewater Cartel joining the Horde after the Cataclysm. Heroes of goblin society are not bastions of honor or integrity. Instead, goblins tend to admire the ruthless acquisition of profit, by any means necessary.

Blizzard did.

You are the one that seems bent on arguing that the paragon of said values, and the character that is to drive THAT sort of story forward…is precisely the shallow, and undeveloped dude known for behaving contrary to any of it.

Yeah, Blizzard is also writing a whole lot of other races rather badly this time around. That doesn’t mean they are being true to the portrayal they had for several races, nor to the hooks they laid to attract players to certain factions.

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irony thy name is aeula

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only if you leave it blank. they don’t have to do that.

would you like a list of things that make zero sense in the story but happened anyway? we could be here a while.

if you can point to developments in the stories for these races that support replacing the leaders then sure. but you can’t, because this isn’t you making an argument, it’s you engaging in your usual histrionics.

he can’t be both a nobody with no backstory and an established character with established character traits. stop trying to argue across yourself and pretend you’re arguing with me.

there is a problem with these statements. see if you can spot it.

no, you’re describing what the goblins have been about up to this point, but blizz are changing what the goblins - and the Horde in general - are about. gone is the day of the edgy, ruthless, teenage angst underdog Horde, because Blizz seem to want them to be feasibly sympathetic good guys.

and that’s what Horde players wanted. be careful what you wish for.

they’ve been doing it longer than “this time around”. forsaken lore has always been borderline stupid, but that’s because they were never anything but a vehicle for Sylvanas to come back in The Frozen Throne so no thought went into them.