From Wikipedia: “In video games, a raid is a type of mission in massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) where a number of people attempt to defeat either: (a) another number of people at player-vs-player (PVP), (b) a series of computer-controlled enemies (non-player characters; NPCs) in a player-vs-environment (PVE) battlefield, or (c) a very powerful boss (superboss). This type of objective usually occurs within an instance dungeon, a separate server instance from the other players in the game.”
I am not bothered about raids personally. I like raiding.
What I am bothered about is people having to do the above in order to understand the story. In fact I’m bothered by the notion of there being a central story in the first place. Our characters and the interactions between our characters and Azeroth is completely out of focus.
Don’t like that either for the same reason. It’s absolutely fine that the leader of the operation is in that dungeon and you can take him out, but that doesn’t mean the zone should feel incomplete if you don’t kill him.
Same problem, different dimensions. Yes.
Well… it’s funny that, because Blizzard didn’t intend for you to run in 10-15 people. But there was no cap and it was much faster and there was no lockout so people did it anyway. It was more efficient and obviously far easier.
EXACTLY! Bingo! Giving you a heart for that one. I don’t play FFXIV so I didn’t know they did this, but this is pretty much exactly what I’m getting at.
I however didn’t agree to have you speak for me as your original post seems to suggest and I’m sure there are others that haven’t consented to have you as their spokesperson.
I don’t mind hating on Blizzard… but how does the cinematic in Ny’alotha leech money? Legit, explain that to me. How does Wrathion stabbing N’zoth leech my money? Nobody stays subscribed to WoW for the cinematics. In fact, if they were just leeching, they wouldn’t be wasting money on cinematics, because almost nobody watches these. I think it was bigwigs that skips cinematics automatically for you, and there’s plenty of people running bigwigs. So… kindly, please, when you’re hating on Blizz, at least do it like this “the entire gear progression is deliberately broken and focuses on incremental ilvl increases so Blizz can keep you hooked, the same goes for the corruption vendor and the corruption system itself - both exist exclusively to leech your money”.
The funny thing about this is that everyone’s focusing on “nobody” yet the thread doesn’t yet feature anyone who actually likes it. There are people saying that it’s no big deal or that LFR fixes it, but nobody saying they actually like it when pressed on that point.
So I mean… so far my statement appears to be correct.
Oh yeah, then I definitely agree. I really hate how Blizz pushes you to buy the books just to be able to understand the story. It’s really, really bad and makes the entire game worse for it.
That definition applies to dungeons and battlegrounds and it’s completely irrelevant and not what i asked.
Yeah i’m thinking of westfall for example, the story is about the defias brotherhood and their leader, Edwin van Cleef, is the last boss in a dungeon.
This is viewed as fine when contrasted with WotLK, where the story of each zone builds up to the final confrontation with Arthas, that’s only possible through raiding, real raiding.
So there is a difference here but if you’re not fine with the first case then you’re one of very few because that worked pretty well so far.
In Legion didn’t we have to do the dungeons to complete the story due to the Pillars of Creation being in the dungeon or tied to a quest following the dungeon quest?
I think that’s because more people want to do dungeons than there are people who want to do raids, but principally there isn’t actually much difference, no.
The real difference lies in the fact that the zone works even if you don’t kill Edvin van Cleef. It still manages to carry you forward.
Put another way, not killing Edvin van Cleef does not mean that you did no good in that zone, nor does it mean that Redridge doesn’t make sense. If Redridge Mountains featured the deeds of Edvin van Cleef and a whole village that was super happy that he was dead, then we’d have a problem, but it doesn’t.
Yes. The rest of the story of Legion doesn’t makes sense unless you do the raids. That’s the problem. And that’s why we can only get to enjoy the .0 patch as part of the new levelling experience. There is no way for a player doing that expansion’s content as part of Shadowlands’s new levelling system to understand how he gets to Argus, so he just doesn’t, and Argus is forgotten.
I’m not talking about the raids at this point, I’m talking about the dungeons. Each zone story was wrapped up in a dungeon and don’t we get a pillar of creation at the end of most of the dungeons.
The issue is, if you remove the story from the dungeons and raids, what are you left with and what’s the alternative?
I want there to be a new form of flexi-raids called “Story Mode”. A mode whereby you can go solo or in a flexi 5 man group, and the rest of the group is NPCs. No gear rewards except maybe cosmetic stuff, pets, that kinda thing.
Not sure what carries you forward means, however the same can be said about the Lich King, not killing him doesn’t mean that Cataclysm made no sense. Just like edwin, they represent the END of the story.
For example if you’re reading a book and the last 2 pages are missing, the problem is that you don’t have a conclusion, it doesn’t make it fine because it has no impact on the next book you read.
Stories can wrap up in dungeons, that’s fine. But the story shouldn’t necessitate the dungeon to feel complete.
I’m not asking to remove the story from dungeons and raids, I’m asking for continuity without going through raids - and in order to deliver that continuity, these important cinematic moments necessarily gets dragged out of raids.
That’s a fair point, but it’s also somewhat missing the point.
Wrath of the Lich King feels incomplete without killing Arthas because it is called Wrath of the Lich King and features Arthas so prominently. But, in reality, Northrend is a rich tapestry of hundreds of stories. If it wasn’t for this singular focus on Arthas, you wouldn’t need to kill Arthas to feel that Northrend is an interesting place. Fortunately, Blizzard got WotLK half right in that not killing Arthas does not destroy your understand of the Cataclysm.
So Arthas can be a raid encounter, that’s absolutely fine. Like you, I’d almost be disappointed if he wasn’t. He just shouldn’t have been the focal point of almost every zone. He can feature in them, but so can all sorts of other things.
A good example of a raid done right is Ulduar. We can kill Yogg’saron, and we getto hear about him through Saronite and through some of the craziness taking place in the northernmost parts of Northrend. HOWEVER, if you do not kill Yogg’saron, you do not feel as if you did nothing good in those areas, nor do you need to kill Yogg’saron in order to understand the attack on Icecrown or really anything else in that expansion.
Well, you pretty much got half of it.
Your problem is you’re thinking in linear books. This isn’t a book. It’s interactive. This is like a Choose your own Adventure kindda thing.
Imagine if you played Choose your own Adventure and one of the endings you could get to explained the entire setup to the sequel and also was the only ending that explained the beginning of the book as well.
That’s what a raid containing the final story beat is like.
I dont mind if you get a story thing that you can do solo and see the story as long as there are no rewards for it.
I prefer these cutscenes in raids, it is a certain excitement to avoid spoilers and watch it together with my guildies after defeating an end boss. And then it is automatically skipped by dbm anyway in most cases.
