Bad players (stupid people) always complain when they get outplayed. If the whiners had their way we all would have the same 3 abilities so no one can hurt their feelings by outplaying them.
Why would anyone want lifeless classes with only the bare necessities for abilities? Just look at BfA, classes are so barebone and uninteresting that it´s seriously hurting the game. There was NEVER widespread dissatisfaction with classes until WoD and Legion pruned them to pieces. Never.
People had fun playing their favorite classes, at most complaining about some specific ability in pvp, like it should be.
This is not the most easy of topics to grasp, I bet you many players have no clue about what makes an interesting game, and if they do even fewer can articulate it properly. Blizzard must be very careful about whom they listen to.
Guess we´ll see. Shadowlands is definitely moving in the right direction, but more is needed to restore gameplay to its former heights. They can begin with reverting most of the gcd changes, so the combat at least flows properly.
The sentence literally doesn’t make sense. Try reading it a few times. xD
Oh can you, really?
So what was wrong with, say, WotLK or Cata, as compared to MoP class design, given that those 4-5 extra buttons were slightly too much anyway?
They did in WotLK as well. I did feel a little bit gimped in Cata because health pools were friggin’ massive, and in MoP the amount of PvP Resilience really, really slowed the game down. I actually didn’t feel that powerful in MoP compared to WotLK, to be honest.
But then again that might be because my spec of choice a the time, feral, was just cleft in twain for no bloody reason whatsoever.
That’s kind of the point I’m making, except I’m making the additional point that MoP had too many spells. It went a bit over the top.
Careful what you wish for. If they add a ton of this kind of stuff, the game will become confused. There’s a fine line between enabling counterplay and just putting so many GOTYA’s in the game that it just spins around doing nothing because something is disrupting the flow every 10 seconds.
I think the amount they’re adding just about the maximum the game can take before it starts breaking apart. These utilities need not be so disruptive. It can just be simple stuff like “Frost mages have fireball, and they can use fireball on a rogue as he runs off so his vanish breaks” or whatever. It doesn’t have to be this crazy.
Most of gameplay were dull, spell barely interract with each other. In cata, some of that bad design stayed, but they introduced so many things that allow most of spec to have TRUE gameplays. MoP only improved those gameplay. If I compare DPS warrior in WOTLK and in MOP, then I do prefer MoP’s, because rotation had wayy more spells than in wotlk and felt better to use.
That’s a recent call I’m seeing. Spells interacting with one another…
It’s just not true that MoP had more of that than prior expansions. The rotations were in full flower before MoP. MoP just added some insane utilities. It added 2 abilities, which were basically cooldowns, plus the talent trees which, unlike in WoD, was full of cooldowns and CC.
I remember the feral rotation in WotLK… I mean it’s legend: http://azeroth.metblogs.com/files/2009/10/catdps.jpg
I get a little bit tired of this BS. Did you even play WotLK?
To everyone who’s saying "it’s just an alpha ".
Ye it is, so probably damage numbers will change. But the core of the classes will not. There won’t be any new abilities anymore, class mechanics are set in stone. Knowing modern Blizz, they’re cemented for the next 3 years, since they’re not rebalancing mid-expansion anymore.
So the class mechanics you see now in SL alpha won’t change untill the expansion that comes after SL. If you are hoping that Blizz will unprune some more abilities, don’t deceive yourself.
Such good memories… applying mangle and buffing yourself with roar before starting to mutilate your enemy from behind.
I can’t believe how low class design has fallen today. Feral’s ST rotation is now about 4 offensive abilities + a healing one. Don’t know if I should laugh or cry…
I’m only playing a couple of classes. But nah, ret paladin was bad, I don’t like FCFS gameplay, which some people liked. Also, a spell that has a cas timer on a melee DPS ???
But yeah, I think you’re just a hater, that doesn’t understand arguments.
Ret paladin was special though. It was actually considered a problem in WotLK due to its cooldown-centric and simplistic nature. Its gameplay was what led to Holy Power and Focus and things like that in Cataclysm.
So point taken.
I would generally consider the rotations better in Cata than in WotLK, but WotLK’s spells did far more damage relative to health, so in PvP they felt a lot more potent, and WotLK had less CC than Cata as well.
Those have always existed. Slam, anyone?
-_-
I don’t understand arguments because I disagree with them, and also I irrationally hate MoP… while posting on a Pandaren.
You do realise, that there is more to WoW than PvP? I’d even argue that the majority of the game is PvE centered. Discarding MoP’s class design just because of the amount of CC is ignoring all the rest: the interesting rotations, the variety of spells, and the class flavor (funny how we didn’t need artifact weapons at the time).
In my opinion the game should just stop being balanced around PvP. It hurts the gameplay as a whole. Classes become dull for the sake of it.
I say tune everything around PvE, then tune PvP through CC: The more DPS and resistance a class has, the less utility it gets. No need to remove half the spells, no need to turn all DK runes into the same ones to simplify the rotation (personnal issue on that one).
And there is also more to WoW than just PvE. A part of the game that was taken care of until Mists released.
Ah yes, it was so much fun to have so many abilities that you couldn’t even fit them all in your action bar. It was so much fun to have macros with 8-9 lines so that you can actually have enough keybinds. It was so much fun that every class had every bit of utility, because that is class flavor and uniqueness (:
Ever heard of:
Talents designed specifically for PvP
PvP talents
Seperate PvP patchnotes
Resillience gear
Glyphs specifically designed for PvP
And the list goes on.
Yeah sure lmao okay
Have you ever PvP-d at all?
It is possible to have powerful classes that are fun to play, are extremely strong, yet sill balanced, and people can counterplay against them? Why was it possible, to back in the day, have Ferals be a very strong bleed class, with loaded CC options, movement abilities, defensive options and healing options? Because it had weaknesses, and it was generally very, very hard to play properly. Catch a feral in catform / human form with a stun, they will fold so hard, not even flextape can fix them. Ferals can’t spread pressure, because they have limited energy and combo points. Don’t let a Feral Shred, they don’t have enough single target pressure. Dealing damage alone required some brains, as Snapshotting used to be a thing.
There are many ways to outplay what is a very strong (and fun) class and spec to begin with.
I do. You’re speaking to a 9/12M raid leader and guild master.
I actually don’t PvP as much as I used to. Not even close. But I still care tremendously about it, because almost half of my raid team do, and many of them in Gladiator range, too, and I’d like to get back into it.
But they gotta re-grab my interest.
I think MoP’s class design is horrendous compared to what came before it.
WoD approached MoP’s problems with the right mindset, but completely bungled it up because Blizzard ended up deleting the things that made MoP and several prior expansions have great class design while keeping many of the things that made MoP’s class design mediocre.
In terms of CC, they simply reduced the duration and merged a bunch of diminishing returns. They did not do anything about the core of the issue.
In terms of crazy offensive CD’s, they just merged them all together.
They were so occupied with reducing the number of buttons that they took all the cool and situational stuff out to make room for a lot of things nobody wanted there in the first place. They completely lost sight of which buttons were bad for game; they just wanted less buttons, and they thought the best way to do that was to delete the buttons people used less. I think we can all look back at that and say it wasn’t the best decision ever.
Absolutely not the case. This common and understandable but unfortunate brainfart is what got us Diablo 3’s classes, which are a total clown fiesta.
Blizzard dismissed some of the concerns of both PvP’ers and PvE’ers simultaneously to get us to where we are today.
No PvP’er or PvE’er would ever suggest that corruption effects were a good idea from a gameplay mechanical perspective. It’s way too much RNG, and there is no fun to be had here. It’s thematically kindda neat and that’s about it.
No PvP’er or PvE’er asked Blizzard to nerf open world combat into the ground or to make any of it scale with our gear. The whole “levelling down” was not caused by PvP’ers or PvE’ers.
Nobody asked Blizzard to segment every single community into a thousand pieces using shards to the point where several game systems just straight-up break.
PvP’ers are annoyed by the Azerite pieces and all their random procs, and PvE’ers are, too!
Both PvE’ers and PvP’ers have complained loudly about cooldown stacking to the degree where your character can become entirely useless outside of the cooldown stack. This was a huge problem in MoP.
Both PvE’ers and PvP’ers agree that healer mana must have a solid limit in order for games to end.
And so on.
I promise you, for almost anything you can come up with, PvP’ers and PvE’ers agree on what ought to be done. Sometimes there are small discrepancies in the ideal tuning, but these are basically the same discrepancies you can find in Warcraft 3 when CC’ing heroes as opposed to units.
What class did you play? Cuz druid sure had a lot of spells and I didn’t use that many macros. And you’re bringing up utility again, which I already explained why it is a dull argument.
I think those are great. But core class mechanics and spells were changed (removed) to accomodate PvP. These aren’t talents, these aren’t options, these affect everyone, for the sake of making PvP more readable.
I played Mage, Warrior, Paladin and Druid, however, my main is Paladin, so that is what I’ll go into. For casual play in random BGs, I had just enough buttons, but then I got to arena, and I needed so many macros and buttons that I simply ran out of keybinds. And I won’t play with less keybinds, because I know I am a good player, I can do good, and that I can be better. Both Ret and Holy needed so many buttons, it was insane. I specifically remember needing 12 extra keybinds for arenas (and I made use of all the action bars).
Please quote yourself where you did that, because I can’t find it.
Can you give me an example of a change that was specifically made for PvP reasons, but had major impact in general play? I literally can’t think of any.
