It’s illuson made by you, you can easily switch to more easy rotation and have not much of a dps drop, it’s actually recommended if you can’t execute it properly - why would you use this build if you can’t and don’t want to
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Pruning was absolutely the right move and a necessary one, they messed up by coupling it with horrendous changes like GCD/AoE cap changes that made the gameplay slower and worse. That’s why Legion was better than BFA and SL.
Yes you will have a huge dps loss by switching to a simple build. I used Havoc as the example since that’s the spec I was playing last and the demonic (non-movement build) does almost 20% less dps. Any loss above 5% is unacceptable because you’re not choosing your playstyle at that point, you’re choosing to suck for the sake of gameplay.
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bfa gcd change wasn’t a complexity, on the contrary it’s to reduce skill expression
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I agree and I’m saying that the pruning felt worse because of those changes. We lost abilities and the ones we had were also made clunkier because everything took up GCD windows.
Pruning itself was fine and is once again necessary.
yeah and guess what? by the grace of new talent trees i can remove implosion and transfer my talent points in something else if i want more single target damage.
Before because of very restrictive nature of old talents some abilities were bound to be baseline whether i wanted it or not.
Applies to every class
Rubbish. If I go in normal raid and yolo the rotation with one hand while eating dinner with the other, the dps loss is about 10%, not 50% as you claim. The only way to lose 50% of your spec’s potential dps is to not press buttons at all for half the fight.
Again, I call bs. According to the sims provided on the Fel Hammer discord, the difference between havoc DH’s meta build and the no mover build is around 3% (although this does require it to be played properly, of course).
I don’t think it’s performance you care about. It’s topping the meters, which is why you’re so upset that havoc isn’t as easy to top the meters with as you’d like it to be.
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But if i won’t reach this 3% threshold my personal blizzard agent will put a gun to my head and press the trigger. How blizzard can be so rough to casuals!!!
It reduced the number of abilities I could have and took a whole load of utility that I used to have as standard. Now I can only talent into specific bits of it at a time depending on what I’m doing. Meaning I have to choose.
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That’s literally exactly how it has been since at least Legion, I can’t remember the exact talents from MoP/WoD but it’s nothing new.
In SL, I always had to swap back between ST and AoE talents as a shadow priest and I hated it because it ensured that I was crap half the time whenever the opposite of what I have comes up.
It’s not and there’s no arguing the point any further. If you’re spamming things at random, not maintaining dots and buffs, not lining up cooldowns, you’re losing a massive amount of dps. Of course it doesn’t apply to every spec and even if 50% is too much, were’ still in the 20-40% range at the least.
That’s not the same build, that’s a “low mover” build that has barely any larger differences from the default ignition build in terms of the necessary movement.
I’m talking about the “no movement” build from Icy Veins that’s somewhat reminiscent of the old demonic build that was standard in Legion/BFA. I literally just ran the sims on my 456 DH alt for dungeons and it does 21,477 less dps than the 2 builds from above (which both require a ton of movement).
A stupid strawman with no basis in reality. Literally no one would be talking about balance if specs and builds were 3% removed from each other lmao.
What? Name one point in time where we had more buttons overall aside from maybe MoP.
No it wasn’t many abilities were bound to be baseline always, of course you usually switched from st to aoe build and reverse but there wasn’t much to choose.
Now you can almost completely dedicate your spec for one purpose, and it’s great
if i only press dogs, tyrant, sb, db and HoG i lose about 15% and still can met minimum damage threshold for boss.
Builds usually not that hard removed from each other, he gave you as a proof sims.
Maybe it varies by class and possibly spec but I lost things going into DF, I didn’t gain.
I actually find it much nicer on the whole. As far as utility goes, I have to talent to get BoP, HoS, whether I want Freedom to go on another target (and me) at the same time etc. It took some adjusting as everything was just part of our standard kit before.
I’m not excited for the return of the talent trees. The bulk of the playerbase will just have a cookie cutter for most content making the odd change here and there depending on dungeon affixes, boss abilities etc. However, this is how they got rid of borrowed power and they’ve finally made changing talents so much better. If I take a point out to move it, it no longer resets the whole tree after that point.
With our current build I don’t have crusader strike anymore 
Oh, you mean the build where the only buttons you pressed were Eyebeam (on CD), Blade Dance, Chaos Strike and Demon’s Bite. The one where you were practically immortal because you had a ton of leech, ran massive amounts of versatility and could use DH mobility to be on the other side of the room when damage was happening. Yeah, that was totally OP and ridiculous.
I don’t know which ret builds are meta and what the differences are in terms of dps but I was pleasently surprised with the amount of passive replacements rets have when leveling a pala alt. I wish that all or even most specs had as many alternatives but that’s simply not the case. It genuinely feels like a completely different team designed ret compared to other specs in the game.
I’ve tried a bookin, fury warr, all rogue specs, havoc dh, and they were all more more complex and bloated than they were in Legion, BFA, and generally more complex than SL.
Yes that’s exactly what I want back and the only reason DH ever got as popular as it was. You give that build to a new player and they’re gonna love it, you give them momentum and they’re gonna reroll or stop playing in a week. It’s not even just about being op, maintaining high uptime on demon form felt amazing and it was just flashy and satisfying to play.
The game is full of players and tryhards obsessing over what’s “worthy” of doing good dps and what’s complex enough to meet this arbitraty treshhold that they completely lost sight of what should be the most important aspect of the game. There’s nothing wrong with having simply specs that do well, like BM is and like Havoc used to be.
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Ret was recently reworked, more and more trees are reworked with new class design philosophy in mind
Op things are loved by everyone, not new players.
My god why people here use term new player like politician use “but what about children!!”
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I listed my own sims as the example lmao, it was a 20k difference from a build that’s right there on Icyveins, not a 3% one.
20k difference is 8%.
Are you a mythic racer?
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And the only reason that build existed was because DH was the new class and they wanted everyone to play it. They’ve done exactly the same thing now with the latest new class - evoker. Don’t expect that to last either.
Most rotations are not complex aside a couple of outliers like arcane mage.
Just drop this subject already, you guys have no idea wtf you are talking about.
You just have boomer hands.
In fact, most rotations are not significantly more difficult than how they were in wrath. Only the content is more difficult, and only mythic content/heroic especially. So literally end game content which is supposed to be challenging.
We finally have really nice rotations, and you guys already wanna ruin it because “simplicity” Just shut it already. If you have to look for a keybind, can’t follow a rotation even if your life depended on it, making the “rotations easier” Won’t magically make you a top tier player.
The problems with wow are NOT related to difficulty, they are related to things like: Too much content left unused, and things like the deplete mechanic.
It’s also frankly a problem of players wanting to be carried, the reason why it’s so difficult to get into group is not just due to things like the deplete mechanic, but also because there are too many players who just wanna get carried without contributing anything, both when making the group, and when getting into group, this means that people generally wanna only invite the best of the best because the worst can really ruin your day.
So these problems literally feed off each other.
You’re making my argument for me.
DH and rogues were reworked and they didn’t get any less complex, ret is the exception not the rule.
That’s true but specific rules apply to new players because they aren’t gonna jump into a 20 year old game, and memorize a 15 button-long opener on top of learning every boss and trash ability in the game. The game is impenetrable if you don’t have years of accumulated game knowledge or a willingness to put in hours into research for your spec and the content you’re doing.
I personally also prefer simple and performant specs as well because I don’t want to juggle 15 plates while watching out for 4 interrupts, 2 frontals and 3 debuffa to dispel, but I will still adapt somwhat and have some fun with the game whila a new player will drop it.
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Rogue rework is sweet, rogues were always a hard class.
New players jump into ffxiv and memorize 22 buttons rotation (samurai my beloved, hello), don’t worry new players aren’t idiots