There is too much complexity in the game on both the P and the E side in PvE

I’ve felt this way since DF dropped because the talent trees have massively bloated almost all the classes and specs in the game. The choice talents provide is largely a lie in terms of how complex you want your spec to be, at least if you care at all about your performance.

The build with more active buttons and complex interactions does more dps 8-9 times out of 10, and this is rarely a 5% difference and more like a 20% one. It’s impossible to make any generalized statements because of all the variance here without someone compiling all the data and running the sims which I’m too lazy to do, but that’s been my experience so far.

I wanted to try the no mover Havoc build from Icyveins that would make the spec not be as mouth-foaming and maniacal as it has been this whole expansion, and it ends up doing 17k less dps compared to my current 100k with the ignition build. This has been true for all specs I’ve tried so far, which is like 8 of them, and not all even have a simpler alternative. The result is that we have like 7-12+ active combat abilities you’re using all the time for most specs including baseline rotational abilities, and those with short short cooldowns that you’re actively using.

This is imo, too much when the content itself is at the current level of complexity. The visual language the game is using is terrible especially with trash encounters in M+, there are so many frontals with no indicators and no way to tell where the mob is facing when you’re fighting 10 of them, especially with something like Havoc where you’re blitzing through and around enemies all the time to be able to do any damage.

We have FAR more active offensive and utility spells that we have to be using all the time be performant compared to a few expansions ago, and the content is about the same level of difficulty which just makes the game much more draining to play overall. In BFA you had at least 30% fewer active abilities if not more, while the dungeon and raid content was on a similar level of complexity.

Dragonflight sucks with attracting new players and bringing back older ones but is good with retention because they have dedicated the entire game to sweatlords that make up a tiny portion of the overall playerbase, who are now happy and actively playing (raid logging) a game that’s needlessly complex and impenetrable to new players.

Unless they’re satisfied with running a comparatively niche game for M+ pushers and guild raiders, the mechanics need to either be drastically simplified and made both less punishing and much more visually clear, or they need to cut back on the complexity on the player’s end and take us back to having 4-6 active spells with a few cooldowns and utilities on top. All specs need to have a simpler alternative that performs nearly as good or the choice these talents provide is pointless. I swear talents were better back in Wrath/Cata days where it was mostly something to progress through during level while your entire baseline toolkit was set in stone.

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Are the best thing added by df

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It’s the only thing it added lmao, so it’s both the best and the worst depending on how you look at it.

One sentence statements aren’t arguments.

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You know you don’t have to press all the buttons in easy content, don’t you? In world content or low M+/normal raid, rotation doesn’t matter, utility doesn’t matter. You can just press some of your buttons and ‘win’.

The problem is not that specs have grown too complex, but that players have become too hung up on damage meters. You don’t have to squeeze every last 0.1% of dps out of your spec to clear easy content, so play whatever talents you enjoy.

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People were calling us some not very nice names as Dhs and they thought to make it as complex as possible.
Guess what,people still call us those names.Even though the class is way harder to play now.

They should ve left it as it was in Legion.
Momentum was for a niche minority and that was fine.Now its kinda mandatory if you wanna actually do some Dps.
I am not playing it,its not fun,very punishing and annoying to rely on movement for Dps.I just don’t care.

So yeah some things should stay simple.

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dragonflying system wasn’t a df addition? Evoker class?

Complexity adds skill curve, skill curve is a very healthy thing to have in mmo. People like to compete

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Nothing is actually new this expack.Df…we had flying…talents trees…we had them too.
Invasions…omg each xpack.

The last new thing they added was Torghast,we did not have a roguelike before.

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would you like for warcraft to include first person shooter mechanics and a dating sim elements if new talent trees and dynamic flying is not new enough for you lmao

Not everyone.Don’t push the complexity on everyone.
Some people either can’t or won’t want to be always on their toes.

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I don’t like things like that,yuck.Whats wrong with you?
I don’t even think I know what the second things is though.
Don’t attack me cause I don’t enjoy some features that the game already had before and want to call them new.

My post obviously only matters to people who care about their performance hence:

Rotations and complexity matters always if you don’t want to suck and be carried. Go to a normal raid and press whatever you want and see what happens, you’re gonna be doing 30-40k dps in season 3 with 80k dps gear, and you’re not even gonna clear it if the whole raid acts that way.

It’s also far, far above 0.1% which you would know if you looked into any of these builds and their performance. As I said the difference as 10-20% and more, you can regress like 15 ilvls worth of gear if you use a wrong build or suck with your rotation.

There was always a skill curve, there was never a point where 100% of the playerbase got free CE achievements so we’re obviously talking about degrees here. In my opinion, the curve is way too big at this point in time and it’s actively pushing newer and many older players away from the game.

They should have or at least it should still be a very competitive option. Havoc was made to be a flashy and accessible starting class that anyone could enjoy, now it’s one of the sweatiest specs in the game and the riskiest one to play at any higher level.

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You said that these things aren’t new, not that you don’t like them.

I haven’t seen skill curve in legion, i don’t see skill curve in classic.
It’s all very washed up and not exciting

Oh really so every Legion player had killed mythic Kill’Jaeden then, one of the hardest bosses ever put into the game?

i’m talking class mechanics, not group’s coordination and dedication to grind.
You know how many buttons legion affli in his rotation had? 4. 5 tops.

And maybe thats why it was a success compared to this sweatiness…
There was a skill curve with momentum and netherwalk builds if I am not mistaken so don’t lie.
It was just not mandatory to play those if you did not like them,as is now.
And people who just wanted to have fun could.

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And I’m saying that the 2 are directly related but you’re wrong even in that case, not every player had orange parses or anywhere close to it.

You can’t ramp up both the player and the encounter complexity or the whole game starts getting too complex, and that doesn’t benefit anyone except the +30 pushers and mythic raider type of players who genuinely like sweating and doing slvl 1 Dark Souls runs.

And the game was better for it all things considered. Now they have 9-12 buttons.

bringing back the talant trees was a mistake there a reason they was removed in the first place

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Don’t worry, there were a plenty of doomsayers like you in legion period, forum is the same no matter expansion

For some classes yes, but it’s outliers, not overarching class design philosophy

Not for class design reasons.
Arguably legion had worst class gameplay and class design

I like having talents in theory but when balanced by Blizzard, I would prefer not to have them because the illusion of choice they provide results in everyone having to play the most tedious builds available to do competitive dps.

Talents are good during leveling, they suck for endgame. The MoP-SL talents also had a similar problem of half of them never being competitive and you having to choose between ST and AoE all the time so you’re always sucking in one area of gameplay. Just make it everything baseline like back in Cata, and reduce the overall complexity.

What?What?
Those are for HDH.Were for HDH.
What other classes have those?

Or your saying you minded the pruning?
Cause you make no sense otherwise.
I liked the pruning btw so sowwy.