This is a problem: Fury Warrior, TWWs2

Classes Warrior
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Hi, first things first. As many seem to be too focused on the negatives and I want to avoid coming at this as a doomer. Overall Fury plays well, it is fun and it feels great to press buttons (as long you ignore the problems). The performance currently sits to be in an alright spot and even if nothing gets fixed, there is nothing to really cry doom about. Fury Warrior is overall fine, and in a decent spot. If you are wondering; Fury is and will be fun to play in TWWs2, and you should not be afraid to give it a try!

The problem, though. Thanks to the direction that was chosen to flatten the Fury Damage Profile through; a round of buffing the rotationals that was following a period of really impactful nerfs to the node-buttons; we have reached the point where you are now choosing to pick up passive-rotational buff modifiers above taking the extra button options. Not to mention, it reached the point where you can consider dropping Hero-spec boosted elements like Bladestorm and simply equalise the output with rotationals instead. This is a huge design flaw in my eyes. It turns the things that should basically be the “ultimate abilities” in the game design, into annoyances that disrupt the real DPS buttons: Being Raging Blow, Rampage and Bloodthrist.

While it is not necessary a problem that the passive options can keep relatively close to the GCD buttons. It becomes a problem when the passive beats out the ones with a GCD cost. Let us use Odyn’s Fury as an example:

For reference on Single Target one cast while enraged:
Odyn’s Fury: 1.3m
Raging Blow: 1.5m (1.3m+0.2m)
*(Raging Blow also grants Slaughterhouse, 
another 20% of a rampage in value and BT 15% crit-chance. 
So roughly a bit above 0.2million damage in this example)*

Raw damage they are close to equal. With modifiers included Odyn’s Fury is 200k behind and a DPS loss.

Odyn’s Fury for the Global spent, is worth less than a cast of the builder Raging Blow. 45 sec CD is being beat by a rotational in value!

I am sure some would argue that “but Odyn’s is worth more in a global on 5 targets” and they are just barely right.

On 5 targets, Odyn’s would do 5*1.3m; 6.5m
On 5 targets, Raging Blow do 1.2m+700k x4+0.2m+0.1m x4; 4.6million

This means Odyn’s Fury got a 1.9m “lead” in value on AoE.

I think I don’t need to point out that such a number is nothing over the span of 45 seconds of overall value. Let us say Bloodthirst is used 1 time in VC range. That is 0.4m+0.20*4; 1.2m. If you use BT more than twice in execute range, then you suddenly have passed Odyn’s Fury cast value on AoE in this scenario. In general you get 1 OF on a pack, you do a lot more cleaved BTs in VC range.

Important to keep in mind: VC doesn’t only replace Odyn’s Fury value in that global. It affects the rotationals, it is always there and nets a huge gain. If you press OF 40 times in a key, you will have close to pressed BT in VC range 100 times. Of those most BT VCs will always have full value, on ST and MT. While OF on ST is a DPS loss. Causing the difference to become even more pronounced.

I hope my point comes across how bad this situation really is.

Keep in mind, this problem goes for Onslaught as well, and that button is just Raging Blow+ in design simplicity. For the button to be balanced, it just needs to do more damage than Raging Blow + earlier alternative option nodes value. Onslaught is under tuned some how, even when it should be the easiest button to balance. Make it do a bit more than RB+mods. Something that is simplified as Onslaught do give Slaughterhouse stacks through tenderise. Alternative would just make Onslaught replace Raging Blow as Crushing Blow did.

Lets talk solution:

I dear to trust that most to everyone agree that the problem is real and should be fixed. Now what options and knobs do blizzard have easy access to untangle the issues?

Yes, it is as simple as tuning the numbers of the abilities up. How is the question, to do it in a manner that makes sense and is not unbalanced. If Onslaught does more damage than Raging Blow, then it simply becomes the the go-to choice in both AoE and ST if Odyn’s Fury cant compete against its value node vs node. Then one must ask what niche should the ability cower? I personally dislike the idea that Odyn’s Fury should only be a DPS gain if the damage window is less than 10 seconds. The abilities should be tuned around being good overall tools as well as niche tools. If Odyn’s Fury is not worth the 3-4 casts of Onslaught in overall value, then it becomes comparably a dead ability in all scenarios except the “adds that die in 4 sec in raid, that spawns every 45 sec” “niche”. I ask For things to be balanced with M+ as a whole in mind. Odyn’s on cast must do damage equal or more to 3 casts of Onslaught or it will be dead in the water. Onslaught must do more damage than a Raging Blow (+mods and alternative gain) to be valuable.

If we want a world where these buttons are not only fun to press, but also got real impact, they must be tuned with a purpose beyond being ‘efficient in theory in a super niche set of situations’. They should be more generic. Onslaught must be Raging Blow++, and Odyn’s Fury must be a gigantic AoE nuke.

Bladestorm Vs Ravager, should be that if you want the most damage possible, you chose Bladestorm. It is a channelled ability that locks you out from doing other globals in its duration. Ravager should not be in a situation where the only draw-back is that the damage comes out over a longer period of time. Yet the total value of Ravager is more because of the globals freed to press rotationals. Bladestorm must equal more than Ravager’s raw damage and the potential damage done by the globals during Bladestorm’s channel.

If we reach the point where warriors thing to themselves; “To do the most damage as possible, I should not take Bladestorm - but ravager, as Bladestorm locks the warrior out from pressing rotationals and is a DPS loss” then Bladestorm fails by design. Even if it is a “AoE nuke on raid adds that spawn every 45 sec” “niche”.

To sum it up. I am basically asking for tuning that makes sure the big buttons from Fury Warriors end-node choices to be actual impactful. That you would want them all. I want that you would wish to bring them all. Yet, you can’t. As if - actually power was moved into the node branch points - you would have only enough points for two of the special buttons with their improvements.

Don’t buff Odyn’s Fury and Onslaught 100% baseline. As that would only make it so you take both. You move that output value into the follow-up nodes. More power through investment is the way. But please, if you are a dev and see this: Don’t make it so those effects grant DPS by buffing rotationals again. No more hurricane %str for X seconds effects. Just have the ability and its nodes buff be self-contained. Push the button, do the damage, get the dopamine.

This is the simple way, the easy way, and how - and I dare to say - everyone but the very special minded prefer it. Game got enough modifiers that interact as it is.

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“Damage by global” concept is a fallacy, Raging Blow requires you to use Whirlwind previously (so it’s 2 globals) while Odyn’s Fury gives you 4 Whirlwind stacks, so not only it does 30% more damage than Raging Blow but also gives you more DPS by not forcing you to use a global on Whirlwind which does negative damage, in both ST and AoE.

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It is a fair point, you could argue that you would push in OF as a makeshift Meat Cleaver enabler. Though here are some practical problematic implications to that argument line.

Odyn’s Fury is often cast at the start of a pull, where you will find most warriors to mid-charge cast whirlwind either way. Or, you hold your burst AoE while things are being gathered, using WWs as the rotation is going. Odyn’s Fury will not always hit the perfect reset of a whirlwind in the rotation. The moment you start to argue you should hold OF, then we are losing value of the button and fast, as the window of value of the passive talents to ramp up grows. As such the value of the meat cleaver effect fluxate. Still, there is a point of some value being gained from Meatcleaver pushing WW 4 to 0 globals. It just doesn’t seem very practical to discuss as a point.

Hopefully this context of my frame of thought helps to highlight why I don’t really see WW and OF to be interchangeable GCDs. Even if I do see where you are coming from and partly agree.

I presume your last point was not to replace a WW on ST with OF. That you just pointed to WW being low damage in both ST and AoE, as a reinforcing statement of WWs value as raw damage. As OF replacing WW on ST would be even more extreme rare of a case. Your point seem to focused towards the example of AoE. Yet, you do attack the concept as a whole “damage by global” (that would include ST and AoE). If that is the case, I strongly disagree to this part of your argument. Odyn’s is not interchangeable to the same wobbly degree as on AoE.

It is a good observation overall though. I agree that the example as given is flawed. The pure idea of Raging Blow Vs Odyn’s Fury on AoE doesn’t hold up completely. I still argue it stands as a point and example to the value gained on the press and how it is lacking. One could argue from the other extreme as well, where Odyn’s Fury does not replace the most common rotational to press, but instead pushes back Rampage or a VC bloodthirst crit. Those will also happen.

I simply use Raging Blow as the most common global to press as the example. To make things as clearcut to the point as possible and using the same ability in both cases to easier show the value prospect of the press.

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I do agree with you that OF feels a bit underwhelming to press compared to other buttons from other classes, I was just pointing out why your maths aren’t fair. OF could use a buff for sure, for instance my two played classes are Shaman and Warrior, so comparing the new Primordial Wave,which is amazing, from Enhancement with OF is like day and night.

I don’t understand this part of your response, I never spoke about “replacing”, obviously due to cooldown you use OF whenever available because it’s the superior option. I was just saying that due to WW low damage in both damage profiles, it is the last button you wanna press, especially if OF is available.

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Could be you saying that WW is low dam in general. Or you saying it in context of your statement as a whole that was closer to ‘Odyn’s Fury is more efficient a global than WW, as such a DPS increase’. As mentioning it for ST is… silly to say at least. As you don’t use WW on ST often enough that OF replacing a WW cast seems likely at all. Even on AoE that argument doesn’t really hold water.

Still, we both agree and I have taken your point to heart, even if it is not very applicable in practical scenarios. I find my math to be fair, for the reasons mentioned above. OF simply isn’t a replacement global for WW, even if it can push meatcleaver stacks around.

Mentioning shaman, I am just really glad that their button feels good. It is how it should be, as you pointed out, there is a huge difference in impact. Personally, I find it super fun playing with a shaman that just pops off. Even if it makes my own DPS look miniscule. I just wish Fury Warrior also could have a moment of Glory. Odyn’s should in theory be on the same level as Wake of Ashes for Retribution (if we take the devs word on that the ability should be a signature one), just as raw damage instead of a Wings enabler.

Now, we are getting hyperfocused on Odyn’s Fury and this part of the example, what weight it should carry and if/not meatcleaver stacks matter. So we are kind of leaving the topic, that being:

I am glad though, that focused disagreement aside. We stand as one in wanting the buttons to be better to press. As the current situation is problematic in the value they bring.

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That’s exactly what I meant.

I disagree with this. My reasoning being Ret and Fury are completely different gameplay wise. I would say Arms is the equivalent of Ret for Warriors, a slow, hard hitter spec where each button feels impactful. Fury is is more like Outlaw Rogue, very fast hits but low number values.

I think it’s good that we have 2 different damage profiles on the same class, and in the end it doesn’t matter if you hit 1 million in a single hit or 200k x5, so long as the final value remains the same, but I preffer if Fury keeps the current design.

Honestly, I 'd be happy enough if they simply removed the AoE cap. But yeah the capstones are pretty crap.

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I just want to add, having Whirlwind doing more AoE damage than OF, just isn’t a very good look for the button.

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