Thoughts on sub rouge (shadowlands)

Classes Rogue
1

Hello!

I’ve been looking on YouTube vids and reading the changes. And I think sub is almost there.

The thing I am missing from sub rouge right now in the alpha is the sensation of completnes.

A major fix would be to add premeditation. Being able to get that 2combo points from the bat would be sick.

I would also like to see hemo instead of backstab. Why? Becuse backstab do week dmg, so it would be nice to get a dot that increases dmg as traidoff. If that makes sence?

Garrot would be nice to see in the spec. It would create a more flavour and a bigger skill gap to the gameplay.

The most important one is!!!

Remove shadow dance from GCD!
I am so nervous that blizzard won’t make this change. Because I believe this would destroy the whole spec.

This is just my thoughts. Do you guys agree or not?

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2

??

is dance on global in the alpha? it’s not in bfa if that’s what you mean.

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Should have both, and Gouge to set up hard hitting backstabs outside of stuns.

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Hahah i was super wrong. Just ignore this forum!

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Yeah, as I start playing WoW from TBC I really miss not only Hemorrhage as a spell, but also I miss that freedom, a flexibility comes with talents, we’ve lost these days to gain (gain?) more "class spec individuality (I respect the effort tought, for example to create a outlaw spec from combat). Maybe it could be back, if Blizz planning a big return of classic class specs features community loved.

For example: choosing a weapon.
In the past as a Subtlety Rogue (I mean: when spending most talent points in Sub talent tree) you may choose a dagger or a bigger weapon in main hand, and the sub tree talents allow you to gain benefits from both approaches. Bigger burst in fewer seconds with bigger crits? Equip daggers. A bit more sustained damage but with increasing pressure strike after strike (by using Hemo, to finally devastate enemy health bar with Eviscerate)? Use fist weapons, swords, maces, whatever you like.
Combat spec tree even was rewarding you with different buff, depending what weapon exactly you decide do fight. Different weapon was meant a whole different playstyle. That feature made me so excited every time I was trying to gain a specific weapon type with best stats from PvP or PvE…

To be honest, rogue “hemo build” or “stun lock build” in tbc sowed real terror :slight_smile:

By the way, talents of many dps classes give them these days a choice between more burst/sustained and/or single/spread damage builds (windwalker monks, havoc demon hunters, feral druids, hunters…), so I don’t think is impossible for equiping assas and sub rogues specs again with these tools. Especially when Blizz want to make a big comeback of classic class abilities. Now if I want to make cleave dmg as a rogue I must choose a specific spec, not a talent in this specific spec if I want to, as is was in the past. That makes things simplified, straight forward, with less choice, less flexibiity and simply less fun.

And what your toughs ppl?

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Hey Blizzard is spamming cheapshot x3 fun gameplay? It’s not for me and it’s not fun to play against. I’m not sure why garrote/gouge/poisons were removed in the first place. Hire some competent class designers thanks

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As a 15 year long time Rogue veteran, I wholeheartedly agree for Hemorrhage to make a comeback. Its a very class defining skill for us, has been especially during Vanilla and TBC, for those rogues that prefer the option of swords over daggers. I have always loved the looks of huge swords on my orc rogue combined with Hemorrhage.
Making swords or fist weapons exclusive to Outlaw is a bad call. Subtlety was never a dagger exclusive spec, it offered both playstyles, between Backstab and Hemo. It is beyond me why they removed this choice.

Another odd decision is to give gouge to Outlaw… Gouge always complimented Backstab. Remember when ‘‘Rogues do it from behind’’? Well they don’t anymore, we have completely lost what made us rogues. I’m ok with the positional requirement being gone, but give us the option to have Hemorrhage as our energy spender again, so I can transmog stuff like Thunderfury on my rogue when I’m Subtlety.
Just like Fury Warriors having single minded fury comeback of double 1h… between that and titans grip it should be a choice of playstyle.
So much of what we loved about our classes have been removed, wich is an absolute shame.

2 Likes
9

Sub has too many Energy regen passives and Talents. Things like Enveloping Shadows and Deepening Shadows just need to go. This would help with scaling issues, and the spec would still have enough tools to handle resources.

I have to disagree here. Sub doesn’t need more buttons, it just needs to have the abilities it has feel meaningful. This starts with returning Shadow Dance into a CD, and no mechanics to reduce the CD either. With a more limited use for ShD the ability becomes a choice, instead of just part of the rotation. This would also allow for your basic abilities outside of ShD to be balanced easier, which would mean Backstab could actually deal some damage.

I don’t think anyone really “likes” Gloomblade. It’s nice to use for Solo play, Questing and such, but it doesn’t really feel any different from Backstab. Why not put Hemorrhage in its place? This would be a talent to significantly modify your gameplay. It could be tweaked to interact and trigger Find Weakness, since it seems Blizz wants to use that mechanic for the spec.
Looking at how many specs are getting to use more weapons again (Frost DKs and Windwalker Monks with 2-handers, Fury with Single-Minded Fury), I think if nothing else, transmog options should be opened up, so that you aren’t aesthetically limited to just Daggers. However, it’s mostly an itemization issue, so there’s no big technical issue why Daggers have to provide different damage, than other 1-handers.

I think Garrote could be baseline for the Class. If Shadow Dance was a CD ability, this would also help with the potential OP-ness of the multi-Silence in PvP. Gouge and Smoke Bomb should also be made baseline for the whole class, as they give great utility and are just fun to use. I could see Gouge nerfed to not award Combo Points, as that’s not what it was used for anyways.

I think making Shadow Dance into a CD is key to making the spec feel good again. It would allow for better control on tuning and balancing abilities, which in turn would give you feedback when pressing a button. Having a more limited use for such a powerful ability would also make it into a meaningful choice, instead of just part of your rotation.

Symbols of Death is basically the same as Vendetta, without the restrictions. However, due to its low CD it’s essentially a maintenance buff, instead of a fun ability, that you strategically use. I also feel Shadow Blades is just a poor fit for Sub.
A more elegant and fun way to play would be to turn Symbols into a true CD ability, so buff the damage and duration while increasing the CD, so it would truly be Vendetta without the 1-target penalty, and in turn remove Shadow Blades and give that to Assassination, which then wouldn’t need Vendetta. Blades could just be renamed to Poison Blades or something, and have it deal Poison Damage, instead of Shadow, to fit better thematically.
One big reason in favor of removing Shadow Blades from Sub would also be with balancing damage for the spec, allowing for Shadow Dance to be buffed and turned back into a CD, and having less GCD issues, when looking at burst windows. Sub would be able to get faster into damaging, without having to spend 7-10 seconds setting things up first.

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I think that, and many other changes with classes and specs was happening in the first place, beacause of global effort of Blizz to simplify gameplay from expansion to expansion. They did that beacause either they want gather more new players to subscribe and stay, or to have an easier job to balance gameplay, or both. I suppose they intention was not to make the game less fun tought. I really hope they do realise now where in the past mistakes were made. Or maybe we, many years players are now more heared than before (with the Blizz idea of return of the class identity in the upcoming exp).

I spend a 99% of the time from a couple of weeks now in WoW Classic. I hope class changes will change that :slight_smile:

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I checked wowhead for 1h 440ilvl epic maces, swords, warglaives, axes. If dps, dmg, speed and other traits of these weapons are different from each other and still we can swap between them by transmogrifier, I don’t understand why rogues can’t swap these looks with a dagger look either. Ok, maybe would be riot from assas players “we use only daggers, other weapons kill our fantasy”, but sub and especially Outlaw don’t have these restrictions from a fantasy point of view.

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Playing a rogue since vanilla, with sub being the favorite spec, I agree with most of the concerns and ideas in this thread.
The most memorable piece of memory I think is TBC HARP build (Hemo, Adrenaline Rush, Preparation, with Prep reseting the cd on AR). Thing is, back then you could build your character around the gear you got. Finally made the dragonstrike one hand mace from blacksmithing? Cool, lets play harp with mace spec to stun-lock permanently in 2x Adrenaline Rush kekw.
Bored of that ? (Doubt it btw) - equip the daggers back and experience a different playstyle.
What I am trying to say, that the specs nowadays feel so unified and sterile, there is one or 2 ways you can play the spec. Sometimes even that doesn’t work as seen for Sub these days, unviable spec for anything but a few niche double dps 2s comps.
To wrap it up, I think the WoD > Legion Death from Above sequence was so satisfying when pulled right. It had cleave on lift off, big burst when landing, just what seems to be missing at the moment. I would like to see it back.
Or some new ability, I was thinking sonething in lines of DH’s Blade Dance. AoE attack on a fairly low cr, leaving a small dot, or prolonging existing ruptures on targets. Could also be made to look good and fitting the fantasy somehow.

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2 words,absolute garbage.

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Dont really think its safe to ask for opinions around those forums, the place is literally made for crying and whining. Personally I’m good, there are far more worse ones out there.

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Having Crimson tempest baseline for Assa and Sub would be pretty nice.

I agree with DfA being satisfying.

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I find a subtle rouge applied to the cheeks really makes my eyes pop!

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