Don’t put too much thought into Erevien. Seriously, don’t. He’s not gonna move away from bashing Baine or putting the Tauren in some wierd place just to fit his vision.
I feel, even with the manner of which you argued, he will have forgotten about it five minutes later and remain on his strange path of encouraging discussion, but never moving from his points.
(I tried with him loving to throw around Baine not being in SoL, despite how we do see him fighting. Linked videos and screenshots and still somehow he doesn’t see Baine in it.)
To be fair to him, that’s not a mindset that can be claimed to be just his alone. It seems, when it comes to WoW related forums, people will hold their headcanons vehemently even if it goes against clearly presented facts. Of course this kills any hope of honest discussion but I’ve learned to never go in with the idea that I will change the other person’s mind, instead go in and present your arguments and let others reading it decide.
Trust me, this place is still better than MMO Champion lore forums where you have people claiming that no Horde got blighted at SoL despite being linked numerous videos and screenshots to the contrary.
For someone writing about honest discussions on this forum you are putting to many words in my mouth…
Ofcourse the other Tauren are not going to “just” accept Magatha / The Grimtotem, that’s why I used the phrase ‘Shot at redemption’.
Something dire would have to happen ofcourse, which would be fun imo. And I don’t mind some inner struggles/strife to make a race seem more realistic.
Tauren /Baine turning the other cheek just seems utterly unrealistic and I can’t relate to that.
Big problem here is indeed the writing. More to the point it’s the Alliance side writing. There is no realistic way to view them as a threat if everything is all so well and good, and all the citizens/military and leaders are happy forgiving chumps, that possibly can do no wrong in any meaningfull way.
In my opinion, BFA has become the pinnacle of bad writing so far…I can easily equite the whole Horde Faction(50% of the playerbase) now just being relegated to plotdevice in the Alliance story of selfrighteous feelgood vibes.
Just look at the Horde warstory, only served to further the Alliance story into The Siege of Dazar’Alor. And the Horde inner struggle 2.0 soulsearching has everything to do with the Alliance too, from Saurfang, to Baine to even Sylvanas.
So yeah. ‘Realisticly’ there are beter candidates, although that was not the question or point of this thread(I’m not Erevien btw in case of misunderstanding), and I named a few actually, just people tripped over my, apparantly, controversial views on Magatha and the Grimtotem.
Btw, I too played Tauren since classic (most of my characters are either Tauren or HM tauren) , my views just differ from yours, although I Never wrote I wanted them to become evil or like…what? Like Orcs or Trolls? The Tauren are peacefull in nature but they were never ment to be pacifists…like Baine, just not a character I can grow to like or view as a Leader figure as it stands.
For someone writing about honest discussions on this forum you are putting to many words in my mouth…
Strange, because there was not a single part of my first and only reply to you that is putting words into your mouth. You stated:
I stated:
So where are the words being put into your mouth exactly? Unless you are, for some reason, taking my comments to Erevien as comments to you? which would be odd if you are not the same person.
Anyway, I do not really feel that tauren are turning the other cheek as people claim they are since there are plenty of examples of more war like tauren in the game in front of us. This is fine, no one wants the races to be a hive mind and exploring this divide would be great if the story wasn’t focused on Sylvanas’ wild ride.
The problem I have with Magatha being given another shot is the fact it would require one of two things: A) A complete turn around of her character out of nowhere, now she is suddenly someone that gives a damn about others outside herself or B) The entire race to, ironically, do the very thing you don’t like about them…Turning the other cheek.
Neither of these options would lead to a good story for the race. Some characters are better off doing their things from the background, as we have sadly witnessed with Sylvanas in full leadership.
Personal opinion here: Rather than replace Baine with someone even more unfitting, I would rather they drop the whole High Chieftain Bloodhoof thing and finally make a council with representatives of either the different offshoots or the tribes themselves.
It feels that this “Council Solution” starts to be a growing cop out or “jack of all trades” that supposedly can fix every leader related problem. I don’t think that’s the case.
It certainly can fix certain stuff, specially regarding collectives with opposing or distinctly different approaches regarding stuff (Horde races). But not with Tauren.
They aren’t that different from each other regarding their tribes. Mulgore doesn’t have a wide range of differentiated tribes that demand a council rule.
They worked perfectly under Cairne. The High Chieftain position was portrayed in a rather good way.
No. The current problems can be fixed if they fix Baine. Or work on a viable substitute.
A flawed character doesn’t disqualify a whole position or role. What is broken, can be fixed.
There are precedents regarding positive High Chieftains that didn’t alienate half the race or were at odds with a big chunk of the player base.
I suppose I did. But I don’t find it odd, I am the one that brought up Magatha and I am the one that, on multiple occasions, stated my dislike for this pacifistic portrayal of the Tauren race or rather Baine as their figurehead and so for sole ‘mouthpiece’ - Me, Garrou/ Blunderhoof…not Erevien. So either you’re being rude, I guess that’s the norm now if people don’t like Baine, or you’re being dishonest.
Anyway. I can actually relate to what you are writing, to some extent atleast, so no hard feelings on my part.
We just have a very different view of how the Tauren should react on things.
About Magatha, I guess I like the Anti hero* beter over the one sided “hero”, one that in Baine’s case puts his own morals above the well being of his people.
*Magatha is clearly a one dimensional villain, but Legion had me thinking that it doesn’t need to be that black and white…ofcourse she’s not going to be a celebrated hero all of a sudden, that’s not the level of writing I want(yet funnily enough it is the writing we currently get).
And no…this isn’t about “Sylvanas’ wild ride”. This is about the Alliance being the infallible good guys so the other faction in game has to go flat on their face and have all their meow revolve around that.
On one hand, I agree, because I agree with you on Baine.
However I like Rangoor’s idea on this, it would actually alleviate the problem I have with the current Tauren leadership and it would mesh the Highmountain tauren and Taunka more solidly in the whole without homogenising them all into the same soup(if done right…).
Gives more depth into the different cultural backgrounds and mindsets. And more importantly it would mean there are other facets to the Tauren that other races have to deal or work with aside from just…Baine.
Drawback…if it’s anything like the writing is now…then it will be all homogenised and the council will be a hivemind…
In Mulgore alone we have the Bloodhoof, the Highmountain (technically 3 tribes in 1) and a large chunk of Grimtotem. To claim these tribes aren’t that different from each other is something I am going to have to disagree on.
Except when it wasn’t. The position worked well when it wasn’t in focus, but the moment a major event happens? It goes to pot. For Cairne, the two big examples are when his son got captured and he went into lethargy, leaving his people to try and pick up the pieces. The other is, ofc, him getting himself killed in an honour duel, which shook the tauren so much that there were tribes attempting to leave the united tribes under Bloodhoof (See Baine’s short story). It seems to me that over reliance on one figure is hurting the tauren more than it is helping them.
Impossible for the simple fact that everyone has their own ideas on what needs fixed about him. Some think turning him into a baby eating extremist is the answer, others think making him A Cairne clone is and others from that think that outright killing him is the “fix.”
A real fix would require a complete focus on him for at least a patch and would include quests that, frankly, those that don’t give a damn about tauren lore would find outright boring.
I just think you are trying to find problems were there are none to be honest.
Well look, I’ll see you on the middle with this one. Bad guys turning good isn’t something new in fantasy story telling after all and well, I suppose Baine’s forgiving attitude would give way to this. The only thing I would absolutely despise seeing is for such a thing to be resolved in like one quest line where there is no actual path to redemption and everyone involved is expected to swallow it. You know, the Blizzard special.
I will say the Bloodtotem are a bit up in the air right now, considering the tribe is basically remnants of those that didn’t drink the demon blood. For the sake of argument though, I’ll concede them as a full member.
If you want to homogenise the Tauren race under a single banner then you sure have enough room to create a council with enough “Tauren” variety to get away with it.
You’d have Roanauk, Mayla, Baine, and depending on the amount of council members, you’d be able to add Lasan, Magatha, Jale, etc.
But being realistic with what Blizzard is aiming at here, these are considered different factions. Even if they are of the “same” race.
Mulgore is ruled by whoever rules Thunderbluff, and the Highmountain are commanded by whoever leads the tribes around Thunder Totem.
Yes, you can work on a council if you create a single organism to lead the Tauren race. But on a more approachable and grounded interpretation that takes into account stuff like gameplay and game restrictions, Mulgore Tauren need to have a different ruling body, taunka aren’t playable, and Highmountain are their own playable race.
And Mulgore Tauren lack proper tribe development that qualifies them to have a council. Doubt anyone could name a single Mulgore chieftain other than Baine and Magatha.
I’m fine with having a Tauren council that encompassed several playable races. That’s pretty ambitious and I’d like that.
But Mulgore Tauren can’t have that.
They need a High chieftain. If not current Baines depiction, then sure we can have a substitute.
It worked throughout all of Wc3. And in WoW, from Vanilla to WotLK.
Can get any major than that.
That bit reflects more on Baines portrayal and how he managed his people during times of crisis.
I just gave an example where it didn’t in WC3 though? That was during early days of the united tribes as well. Again, worked well when it wasn’t on focus as does most things in the story.
You mean where he convinced them to stay despite everything? I’d say salvaging that hot mess is a positive portrayal on Baine. Though this really just continues to prove my point about the High Chieftain position.
An example that doesn’t sully Cairnes memory enough to even dent his almost unparalleled reputation as Tauren Leader.
The one that drove the Tauren into a new era of peace and bonding with orcs and trolls, that gave them a permanent home and saved them from extinction.
Old Wc3 Cairne would’ve never had what Baine had with Taurajo and Vendetta Point.
I mean when he wasn’t inspiring as much confidence as his father did.
All well and good but does not really counter what I have said, nor does the new suggestion suddenly change this.
I mean I guess he shared that trait with daddy when things were not well. Still, point of the story is Baine inspired tauren ready to give the middle finger to the Horde to remain with it through the rough times.
Works for the dwaves though. Moira is part of the Council of three Hammers leading the united dwaven Tribes, but also leader of the Dark Iron while the Wildhammer and Bronzebeard dwarves have their own respective leaders who are part of the council as well.