its that simple. whomever is designing resto shaman think these two spells are central to the class fantasy and a lot of time and effort is spent trying to make them work. just remove them and give us something else on the level of other healers.
I disagree. You underestimate the power of Riptide.
Its a short CD instant heal that can save someones life. It heals for quite a punch now.
As for healing rain, you have to possition it properly and you also underestimate its power.
If anything, NO. Those two spells ARE what makes RShaman what they are. Chain Heal too.
There are a TON of other things they could change to make RShaman healing more spicy. But removing riptide is not one of them.
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riptide doesn’t heal enough and healing rain is just tedious for the little healing it does. have you played mistweaver or holy priest? their spells are so powerful you’d be chocked.
Aha… You made me look at your talents and gear.
And its 100% a L2P issue from your side.
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ONE: Nobody cares how much healing the rain patch does. Thats not the point. The point is: Deluge. Sound familiar? 20% more powerful heals from people affected by healing rain or riptide. And “affected” means: People UNDER the healing rain, not just being healed by it. SO: Your… Riptide will hit 20% harder. Your chain heal (and the 4 extra bounces, reduced or not) will also heal for 20% if your primary target is under the patch. You haven’t even talented Healing Rain.
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TWO: Ancestral Protection Totem instead of earth wall totem? Like WHY? Earth Wall Totem is #2 or #3 in healing done if placed correctly.
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THREE: Living stream totem? For raid? WHY? It heals just 1 person you know? Learn to use Cloud Burst. Even a nerfed out version of that is better than Healing Stream Totem.
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FOUR: If your not going for Primal Tide Core talent build, DONT waste talent points on Undercurrent. Earth Living Weapon and Improved Living Weapon are more efficient.
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FIVE: Wave Speakers Blessing. For the same reasons above, dont waste talent points on riptides if you don’t go full in with riptide build.
And finally, you dont get what the purpose of riptide IS. Its not made to be as some sort of “OP flash heal”. You got Healing Surge for that.
Its more powerfull than whatever priests or monk has in conjunction with the rest of your kit.
L2P issue right there. Also: in raids, from an HPS perspective RShamans are up there top 3. So I dont see where all these tears come from.
All in all, you have some haphazardly placed talents. And you are trying to play RShaman as if it was some Holy Priest. Well dont. Play Holy Priest instead. 
1 Like
I appreciate you and other shamans trying hard to make it work.
But our talents are pretty bad compared to other healers. My OP was about Riptide and Healing Rain sucking the life out of shamans with around 10 talents based around it. Just imagine a redesign where rsham wasn’t based around other people standing in your tiny circle, especially in Amidrassil where you’re constantly moving or spread, or placing a HoT that does 90% overhealing - outside the rare case someone drops very low and you happen to crit with it.
As for my talents its just random experimental stuff as you said.
I get perfectly well what you want to say. But I insist that not every skill has to heal for tons to be a worthy button to press. The fact that you focus so much on HPS is the wrong attitude.
Poor RDruids that also have a circle that buffs their spells.
Poor RVokers that have a cone infront of them.
Poor priest that have 10000 circles around THEM.
Look. Range in general. Be it a puddle, a totem, some halo, or literally “this 1 spell has a 20 yrd range” has been a thorn in healres rear since 2004 wow vanilla. If DPS want to LoS and dont want to stand in the circle in raid, ESPECIALLY melee and tanks when you place rain at melee…
Then call them out. Its not a Shaman issue, is a them issue.
Yes, there are talents based around them. But none of them are pure HPS centered. ALL of them are about buffing the spell you do after them.
And all your coments are “well the dot does not heal that much”. SO? Chain heal does most of the work. Like I said many times before: The purpose of that “dot” is to buff chain heal, not to leave a OP dot.
If you want to play with dots, play a RDruid. Its their thing, not ours. And dont forget, RDruids ALSO have a green circle that buffs their dots. And guess what, every Rdruid on the planet spends they days complaining that people dont stand in it.
That applies to priest, to healers in general, AND caster DPS too. Moving and “doing other stuff”. You cant just be a turret and ignore mecanics. Everyone has to do them.
And dont worry. DPS also complain that they have to move an loose a CD, or whatever. We all loose something by doing mechanics. Thats the point of going to a raid.
Whats your issue here exactly? What I dont get is that RShaman does have issues. But the ones you mention are like… dunno… universal from every class issues, if you can even call it that. Nothing that can be solved from talents.
You’re bringing up examples and comparisons that don’t make sense. Evokers just have to position themselves and the breath will hit everyone once every 30 sec, with most casts being less than second, druid circle is instant and has like 1 talent associated with it. Halo has a 40 sec cd and can be casted without care due to its massive AoE.
Just compare your talent tree with that of any other healer. They didn’t even try with rsham, again 10(TEN) talents and even some tier-sets to make something out of riptide/healing rain.
Multiple people have brought up the issues with rsham in a more eloquent way and I have checked out your profile and you seem like a decent player, but thats despite the issues with rsham, a class that is holding you back.
I know RShaman enough to know what im talking about.
I said it before: RShaman does have issues. It can be improved.
But removing Riptide or Healing Rain is definetly not it.
Here is an big issue:
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You have Chain Heal, that its cast time is affected by haste, and all other modifiers. Including Tidebringer. If you talent Flash Flood you go from a 2s cast to a 0.8s (1s with out Flash Flood) cast. Which is pretty neat if you ask me.
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BUT: With the new vision of Blizz about mana management, they are literally forcing you to use Healing Wave (efficient spell). NO CHANCE to get that cast time below 1.7s. Even with all -cast time talents. That is horrendous because you just dont have 1.7s to spot heal people. You are FORCED to use Healing Surge, which can get to a 0.8s cast time with modifiers. But you run out of mana if you just spam Healing Surge all day.
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So what ends up happening is that because damage comes in so fast, you are incentivized to use Riptide + Healing Surge + Chain Heal. And even, use Chain Heal on ST heals because its just the fastest thing out there if you dont have Riptide.
All of this defeats the purpose of having 2 ST heals to begin with. And its super mana intensive. So its a problem.
- Blizzards solution to that is to reduce the mana cost of Healing Surge. Which is… dunno… OKish I guess. What I would have done though is to buff Flash Flood. Make it a 1 talent and anywhere between 30 and 50% cast time. Lets leave it at 40%. There.
THATS where things matter.
You insist on riptide. OK. One change it needs is to make its recharge be affected by haste to make haste a more attractive stat. Right not it stands at 6s. Make its recharge rate be affected by talents and modifiers. Then a pure Riptide centered build is actually worth it over a Chain Heal one.
See where im going?
You are just vomiting complaints with out any sense. With out knowing the class.
Holding me back in what sense? Cause I said already: In raid its top 3. And once the MW monk nerfs roll in, it will be even more top 3 in HPS. And in M+ its the underdog of PuG groups. Why? Because RShaman can literally carry a PuG dungeon for you. Because this season there are SO MANY mobs that require interrupt and CC that bringing a DPriest with ZERO crowd control because Icy-Veins or some streamer said its S tier… well… good luck with that.
At least for m+, at the moment my main 2 issues are:
- I can’t dps while healing, and my dps is so trash, it’s not even worth risking 600k dps dps’er dying for my extra 20k dps for couple CL. Whatever acid rain does - that’s all my dps. In season1 and 2 - relatively to dps I was doing more dps (sometimes up to 10-14% of key dps, with offensive annulet). Now I am useless in dps department.
- if I need to do very heavy healing without commiting big CDs - my mana just disappears very fast. It feels like playing vanilla - few casts and you are on 40% mana. I don’t mind this model, but then all healers should go oom, not only Rshamans.
Now what I would change:
- bring back Vesper totem (choice node vs primordial wave, and follow up talents would do same, what SL lego did for Vesper totem - extra dps/healing on 3 casts)
- give a talent that would give a passive effect for ancestral guidance, but at reduced effectivness (like 5%, but permament effect, so this would give reason to more actively cast CLs - my CLs atm crit for 120k → 3targets is ~250k dmg (1crit, 2non-crits) → this results in 12.5k healing for 3 targets → 37.5k healing for 1cast. Which is low, but at least it’s something)
- I would even go as far, as giving options to sacrifice big healing CD’s, for offensive totems. For example - choice between healing tide and liquid magma (with passive that apply 4 flame shocks). At the moment we are so hard-locked into healing, it’s not fun.
But I guess I am one of those healers who wants to dps while healing, and I don’t want to play disc priest
You are 100% correct with your complaints, and I would like to add some more extra details for those who read this:
This is paragon. Anyone that looks up in IcyVeins the talent build for M+ you will see a DPS centric build that is designed by and for the top 0.1% that do coordinated group damage.
Drop ALL dps talents and go full healing, because at the end of the day, Mr. Gageris is right. Healing >>> DPS. Not just RShaman, but any healer.
+1 on this. If blizzard wants to design healers arround going OOM, then all of them should. Not just us.
Maybe its a matter of taste. But I disliked vesper totem. Hated it with my very soul.
What I would do on the other hand, was the elemental with the earthquake. And add a mechanic like Elemental where your heals reduce the CD of the elemental from what, 5 min to 2 min if you use appropriate spells.
And change the elemental from a “tank replacement CD” to a “group wide CD”. Originally, the stone elemental was TANKY. Like really. It could tank a raid boss for a while if you healed him.
Today, cant take 2 hits from anything with out getting 1-shot. It would require the elemental to have like 40M life or something to make it what it used to be.
So I would just ditch the “taunt” ability it has. No more tanking, no more agroing things. What it would do, is give party 5% HP, or 5% verse or something and have an earthquake.
That is a better replacement to Verper Totem IMO.
Love this.
Or just make Ancestral Guidance what it used to be in S1. Instead of transforming 30% of the DIRECT damage you do (so, primary target of CL, or Lava burst) into healing, just ALL damage (Acid Rain and full 300k of CL) to healing.
But only for RShaman to avoid people crying when they see a Enh Shaman healing 200k.
We need to. Wheather we like it or not. We also need to interrupt and CC.
But we cant do everyting at once. Its kinda too much of a burden, so they have to simplify our life somewhere. DPS department is an obvious place to start. It worked well for MW and DPriest. So I dont know where they need more proff.
1 Like
healing rain is trash, doesnt matter how you put it, at least in m+
yes i put in down on cd, because i have to, but it really is crap.
long cd and people just move out.
riptides direct heal isnt bad, the hot is quite useless.
we have good totems but those clunky to use. i mean earthen wall is so great that nobody ever uses it because people just move out of it and the range is to small when you aleays have to spread. same for spirit link.
just healed the 3 sisters on +18 and i was spam healing the person with the thorn debuff that goes away above 90% and for the love of me i couldnt get the person above 90% until i got a massive crit.
it felt like my heals did nothing.
it is stupid that my healing wave can range between 60k to 450k lol
Il indulge in giving some typs and tricks:
- If DDs dont do mechanics, there not much you can do. Never forget that. They have a JOB to do, and its more than just Zug-Zug the boss. Unfortunately, in lower keys its sort of the norm, but hey. At-least don’t blame yourself.
From what I read, you are talking about M+ so il focus on that. Raid is something else.
Easy suggestion #1: Key with 1 or 2 melees. Place it literally under the tank. It will do damage and over the melee ball. They wont run away. Key with 0 melees and all casters. Place it between the tank and you. And you move in it.
Easy suggestion #2: Wait 1-2 s after the pull begins before doing this. So the tank has time to gather everything and move to position. Then its unlikely he will move for the next 4s. Unless there is some affix in the way (sanguine).
Thats not the reason its not used in M+. Its because A) fights are short and high intensity in M+. Its really bad.
Its used in raid to, for example, place it in the melee ball with the tanks. Works like a charm to soak up all that rot damage every boss has, but instead of 5 people, its maybe 12. That damage prevented adds up.
Look what I dug up from WoW Head guide:
“The healer should quickly spot heal this target to remove the debuff the jagged-nettleshas applied. The target may wish to assist the healer, by either using defensive cooldowns or by healing themselves.”
And I go back to my first point. If people don’t do mechanics, its a bit their issue.
But then, try to understand a bit better what happened instead. What does “spam healing” mean? Spamming WHAT exactly? Healing Wave, Healing Surge, with riptide interweaves? Did you use Cloud Burst before to stock up on healing? Dunno…
This is in general how you deal with nukes like that: You have DBM tell you when the boss will cast the needles. You pre-place cloud burst 1s before that. You pop a small CD (racial, pot, trinket, something along those lines). You cast: Riptide, Healing Surge, Healing Surge, Riptide, Healing Surge, Healing Surge…
If you see your getting behind, pop cloudburst before hand. If not, just pop it to get above 100%.
If the party as a whole is receives damage, interweave some Chain Heals here and there instead of a Healing Surge.
If someone else gets bellow 50%, cast 1 riptide on that guy but keep Healing Surging the guy with the needles.
Thats how you do it.
Of course, that boss is EZ or massively hard depending on if the DDs interrupt and do mechanics. Including: Every DD should know what Link is. And should stand in it. And if he complains “why did I die” you gently tell him to get in the link. He will die 1nce, but not 2wice to that.
Correct. The dot is only there to buff your other spells. So its interesting to have as many people as possible with the hot. But that is a design flaw from blizz because a full riptide build wastes a lot of direct heal riptides in “pre-hotting” people. Tons of overhealing.
while that is correct, other healers have a much easier time to deal with it, that was my point
well of course that is what i do. healing rain still feels bad. the healing isnt impactful even though it will be big on the meters after the run and the dmg of acid rain was nerfed to the ground.
I just think it is a bad spell for dungeons and also it is very boring to use.
I profoundly disagree. When DDs don’t do mechanics, step on swirlies, do 0 interrupts… not to mention YOLO tanks that use 0 CDs… or pull half the dungeon and call BL expecting to survive with out a wall…
ALL healers suffer. There is no amount of tools on the planet that can make the run go any better than HELL ON EARTH.
If you happen to be in one of such group, you cant change people. Its unfortunate. Just do what you can, and dont blame yourself there. Move on, next key.
Not agree. Better than in raids. Tight hallways are the perfect place to put puddles. Big open spaces of raids really suck for Healing Rain.
Well I have to agree on you there. It is kinda “boring” to have to cast it all the time.
It is undeniable at least for myself that I can carry people harder on some healing specs than on others.
There is a big difference in oh crap buttons available on different specs
I am currently playing main mw and my next class I am playing right now is resto sham and the difference in how difficult it is to carry bad people is huge.
The lack of frequent instant group topping is a major factor in this.
Shaman is the absolute worst of all healers in group toppings besides holy priest (which is also like D tier currently)
I am not raiding, but as far as I remember people more often than not staying clumped behind the boss till a mechanic occurs, while in m+ people are constantly moving.
Certainly I get my value out of healing rain but certainly not because it is healing is great. I use it exclusively for dmg.
Deluge also applied to targets with riptide, which is 100% uptime on any target that I heal with wave or surge.
At least make the spell no cd and cost less mana if we have to keep that crap…
This game should just have different talent trees; one for casuals and one for “so complex only top 1% understands it”.
Im confused. RShaman is nowhere near a complicated healer. 
The old version of Disc was. But not RShaman.
The difference between the 1% and everyone else is: (1) WeakAuras and addons, and (2) general knowledge of encounters and other classes. Nothing to do with talents, and not exclusive to RShaman.
I am confused. Be a little bit more specific.
How would RShaman “suck” at topping party up with a Cloud Burst + Chain Heal alone? With 80% mastery and some High Tides in between.
Never mind if you use CDs, a trinket, or other modifiers. How is MW so much better than a class that can spam chain heal?
Also, at what level are you playing? Because until you hit 26s ALL healers are viable, and ALL are S tier because they can all cope with healing checks. And healers are in demand so…
Yeah well, I WISH people stayed clumped up. Today every boss has like 10 mechanics that forces you to soak or move in some way. So its annoying trust me.
In M+ you move a lot that’s for sure, but technically, your party only has to stay still for 6s. Which is the duration of Healing Rain. That fortunately happens often.
I wonder what would happen if you add “XXX spell reduces CD” mechanic to it. I wonder what would happen if you could theoretically have mutiple patches of this stuff.
Would it be OP or not? 
Im sure Holy has its issues as well. But the reason its in D tier is not only because of performance. Its because DPriest exists, and its much better. Same with Devastation as a DPS. D tier because Aug exists.
as a mistweave I top my party with 1 button from 10% to full.
A rsham doesn’t even come close to this. How can you even argue about that?
Cloud burst got nerfed like crazy. To charge it up for a moment of fat burst you basically have to heal in moments where people actually dont need heal.
Until cloudburst is charged, people are healed to full already…
Cloudburst is also major garbage against random damage when people got hit by non telegraphed stuff
All healers are viable till -2 top keys most likely in a good group. This doesn’t change the fact that some healers are much better than others, especially in a pug environment.
I mean it should be changed to be at least like consecration, so you cast another, the other one disappears, but at least gives you a little bit flexibility if you tank randomly moves around like a headless chicken, which tends to happen.
holy’s issue stem from the fact that it has absolutely 0 group healing. It does flash heal and serenity spot healing. Heavy aoe dmg that is not ticking are holys weakness. Atal 2nd boss on the other hand is like a dream for holy automatic healing. Another big issue is that holy is the only healer that has no dmg reduction and will just flop to one shot aoe (like BRH last boss…)
Besides that, holy isn’t as bad as people make it to be. I was running everbloom 13 or so today with ilvl 450 and i did 80k dps overall and in the first part of the dungeon even 100k dps. I was quite surprised.
Dev isn’t D tier because Aug is S tier. It is D tier because it lacks dmg, utility and survivability.
Was not arguing about it. Im just asking.
How often can you do that in a MW monk? 5 people from 10 to full?
All in all, Im not arguing that MW might be more powerful right now. I just dont agree with this “RShaman is D tier” trash. That is definitely not true.
It did. And because it did it is used differently than in S2. I find it very useful, especially for maximizing healing.
This “charge” you mention is not what it used to be. Now its used to pad up group wide AoE or spot heal nukes. And it comes in very handy at that because it still is +20% healing done.
All in all: Yes the totem got nerfed. To “garbage” level? Not so sure.
This is where I find it the most useful. In lower keys, in full pug groups I put the totem on CD. The moment someone steps on a swirlie and is about to die, you recall the totem and even if his life does not reach 100%, he is still alive and saved.
Its like a cheat death I get every 40s.
I dislike the fluff of priest in general. I believe you. Same for Evoker stuff.
Change tanks then. Other than sanguine weeks, this is a bad idea. Not just for us, but for any DPS out there trying to avoid cones and frontals.