Nah there’s no fixing that anymore. If they actually wanted to fix it, they should have buffed Alliance racials in Cataclysm. That’s almost 10 years ago.
Nowadays every raid guild is not only horde, but also on like 4 servers. And guess what, even on those 4 servers with one faction, guilds die pretty often because they can’t find enough people. Mythic raiding is really time consuming and a lot of people simply don’t want to do it anymore.
Not talking about that example. I’m talking about your statement about Jaina doing “Nothing wrong” when she ordered attacks against the civilian Blood elf population of Dalaran.
And how you tried to excuse such.
So, you are fine with torture and civilian killings?
And yet your argue Jaina did nothing wrong when she caused such?
———-
See, this is what sounds hypocritical. You seem all to willing to point fingers at players doing such, and yet not long ago we find yourself justifying such sort of actions.
Again, everyone has bias. But you should probably then stop trying to draw attention over some behaviour you are having yourself.
Really??..
I asked this not long ago:
And this was your summed answer 
And yeah. This is a fantasy setting.
If you have a hard time accepting certain strains against real life morals, you should probably stop playing.
The race you favour kills people for cutting plants.
Nothing is beyond salvageable, even in this state lore is in. The tension situation is already set up with the 4 peacemonger characters taken in the Maw by Sylvanas (One thing she did right at least). There is no need for peace between the factions and solution is pretty much one to one to whats going on in this very forums.
Alliance blames Horde for their grievances done over and over again, While Turalyon moves to cleanse the EK from Forsaken and corner the elves. Genn given the opportunity to reclaim Gilneas once more, while Night Elves in Kalimdor look for Horde blood.
Meanwhile Horde doesnt recognise Sylvanas’ crimes as their own. They do not back down from the fact that what Saurfang called the arms to fight a good fight to rid their enemies from their territory had the merit. For once not feeling ashamed for their deeds (Except Elves - they should always be ashamed). That the actions of two tyrant Warchieves are not the voice of Horde people. The Council will answer any aggression from Alliance as act of violation of armistice.
Give the war non definitive theme, not the one expansion thing were one of the faction must win or lose.
Or just collapse the faction system where players will have much more flexibility with grinding the reputation to races they want opening up new quests and rewards just like covenants and keep the racial war lore behind the picture where no player will be affected by it or player character will make their own choice to where to side. Make it more flexible to tell the story like wc3 RTS style. Get Class order halls a thing again for people who want their class fantasy.
I mean sky is the limit - Blizzard has the resources to do any innovative thing that MMO-s haven’t explored yet, better work on one system over couple of expansions for grand goal then some new AP grinding system that will be thrown in the rubbish bin after one expansion.
Despite them not being it since WoT, that is still a good 15 years of them being purple hippies.
I did not. I was sold the idea of vicious Victorian Gothic werewolves and what I got was disappointment.
I like Tauren yes, but I don’t quite like them enough to ditch my friends for them.
White knight writing of vanilla which the Alliance never grew out of, unlike the Horde who got to develop
Because they didn’t fit in with the example the other Alliance race set in Van.
Never said it was the Horde’s fault, only the writers fault on how the Horde is able to get diversity and the Alliance still stagnates.
Northgrave covered my point.
Player issue which Blizzard allowed to fester and grow until it couldn’t be salvaged.
It isn’t. I just don’t want the Alliance to be a chump and fall for the “We’re sorry and promise we won’t do it again.” for the nth time.
I have seen a few and I can agree, that the writing team needs to write better.
I really do not understand this preconceived idea certain people have.
“Diversity”?
The Horde’s “Diversity” has only served to marginalise the outliers to the point it predates on those that stick up the most. And ends up using them as raiding or villain material.
“Diversity” has translated into having the Orc, Forsaken, and Darkspear factions, left without notable characters and story. And segments of the faction systemically turning against each other and killing their own faction members to the point they no longer stick out as relevant members.
That’s the sort of story you want?
I am fine with interrogations.
But I have also said I don’t know these quests und thus can’t say specificly. I also know you like to frame things in a certain way like now for example.
And yes there is a difference between interrogating someone (who then afterwars continues to live) and outright killing someone.
And as far as I know jaine neve rrallied civilians and killed them. No matter how you try to frame it.
And my “mcuh wrong” here was based on the fact that she was the authority and the executive force of a law based city which hunted down criminals. The sunreaver were criminals and started a civil war.
I literally quoted them for you. As long as you can read, there really isn’t much else to them.
Short version:
Long version includes distinct acts of cruelty such as having armed soldiers beating cowering unarmed NPCs tagged as “Civilians”. Or having said soldiers choking at knife point a struggling civilian NPC over a shark pond.
What other context do you want?
Stop grasping at the interrogation bit (although that’s some interesting bit that reminds me of the time Sylvanas was called on torturing Scarlets in UC).
You said there was nothing wrong with actions that included the above while wagging your finger at “Horde players that excuse atrocities”.
No, she just ordered it:
While I can’t say I agree completely with Jaina’s methods, I do understand her motives. Sometimes, you have to fight back.
Sylvanas didn’t personally kill the Night elves in Teldrassil. Nor did she solo the Alliance army in Ashenvale or Gilneas.
Oh great!! So you are now excusing atrocities for as long as the targets are considered criminals or enemies.
Basically, civilian killings and torture is fine for as long as the one doing such considers his targets some sort of “criminal” or enemy.
You realise that there is something called “War Crimes”, right?
Using that same logic you applied for the Sunreavers, mind explaining again how is it that Sylvanas “hunting down” (your words) her own enemies, is such a bad thing? I mean, given you are so keen on having any figure exercising their authority by all means they deem necessary.
I think you missuse the term atrocity here.
Because i fail to see how NE children are “her enemies”.
There is a difference if quests are to kill NE soldirs, or to kill civilians.
But I think at this point you just try framing instead of understanding, you try to twist my word in my mouth AGAIN. I told you before that I won’t further talk to you by any means if you don’t stop that disgusting behaviour and agrue in a normal and civilized manner.
…so, you don’t think that killing or torturing civilians is an atrocity?
The above quests EXPLICITLY mention CIVILIAN target. And you said there was NOTHING wrong with them.
What twisting?
You tag as an atrocity when Sylvanas orders the death of civilians, and yet you argue that Jaina doing likewise isn’t wrong.
You point at people “defending” the sort of actions that include the killing of civilian nigh elves, and yet you address the explicit attacks on civilian blood elves as “Hunting down criminals”.
Do you really not see how hypocritical you sound???
Just droppin’ by to say Purge of Dalaran was one of my fav WoW quests.
As was humiliating Hathorel and killing his subordinates in Baine rescue scenario really.
…Said the guy that opened a thread begging for Blizzard to not do the same with Turalyon 
Hope this sort of posts do not come back to haunt you.
Okay, but that’s in the past or are you going to stay upset about those 15 years, regardless? Also note Tauren had the same treatment and still are characterized as ‘pacifist hippies’ for…16 years then.
But you’re not upset about that, I suppose?
I sympathyse…but what were you expecting? I’m curious…I personally feel disappointed too, since that supposed ‘curse’ doesn’t seem that big of a deal and is massively downplayed once you finish your starting quests and the Night Elves teach your character to be a good boi( sorry, couldn’t resist). But what is it you thought you’d see?
I do hope Blizzard will do beter for the Worgen and put them on the forefront some more, show those race traits that should be there for a group of cursed werewolves…I mean, sure, it took them 15 years and an awfull expac but they atleast managed that for the Night Elves - you may not care about it to much, I don’t know but atleast for customization options both those races are looking really good - then again, for now the customization is actually the major thing I’m personally interrested in in the upcoming expac…
Might want to take those goggles off…The Alliance is indeed portrayed as a onedimensional White knight, but the Horde got developed into genocidal maniacs that don’t really think but just follow- Both could use some improvement, am I right? And I think most of your issues stem from that single one - Alliance constantly being the good guy in the narrative.
Personally I don’t mind playing an Anti-hero / Villain character, I find those roles more interesting, especially in my ‘roleplaying years’. But I’ve grown out of that stage of being evil just for evil sake and having some good/ interresting reasoning or perhaps tragic backstory / motivation is soo mich more interresting, unfortunatly that also needs writers that can do nuance, depth of character etc. Seems to be lacking in WoW’s story so far.
I really do hope BFA was a good lesson…but I kind of doubt it.
Actually in that quest those 4 sided with Sunreavers, refused to leave their business and openly opposed Jaina, who was either putting them into prison or if resisted put down on the spot.
I do not say that it was correct thing to do. But these Elves made their choice, when siding with Sunreavers, openly engaging with player and were capable to fight.
It was either imprisonment or death and the choice was obvious. It even states in the quest that they wont go down easy.
HAHAHHA! What a troll!
Thanks for the clearification.
That is what I meant with he is framing stuff and twisting it.
Great.
Civilians defending themselves and/or their property deserve this treatment?
You realise that seizing the goods of those you consider an enemy is also considered a War Crime right? It’s called pillage.
And how lawful said actions were remains up to debate, as Jaina used foreign agents (Alliance soldiers) to enforce said “law” over citizens that had been living there for far longer than her.
But yeah, that’s all rather beyond the point.
Fact remains that Jaina decided to prosecute civilian venders. And killed those that resisted the pillaging of their goods.
Anyway, what about the quests about saving unarmed civilians that tried to flee but had their means of transport killed, or were ambushed in the sewers by armed guards that were shown beating or torturing them?
Stuff like this?:
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/342467-it-starts-in-the-sewers.jpg
Those are also justified bits? Nothing wrong there neither?
Most didn’t have a choice in that matter.
There is a quest that literally aims at preventing them from leaving the fight or escaping the armed guards that prosecuted them.
Nope.
Just following on this logic:
If the defence shifts to “But Jaina didn’t personally do any of this”, then the obvious retort is “Well, neither did Sylvanas”.
Last time i checked, the thing that the Horde threw at Teldrassil to burn it, were flaming projectiles, not Sylvanas enthusiastically dual-wielding a pair of torches.
I just can help but stare at the blatant hypocrisy here.
How people go ahead and start pointing fingers regarding someone “defending” atrocities, and yet have the face to grasp and excuse stuff like this.
Dude, bias is fine. But at least don’t be as shortsighted as to call on behaviours you have zero qualms about not showing yourself.
OK, maybe dial down abit, I said it her actions were over the top. But the whole faction was accused of treason and jeopardising the neutrality of the state, aiding the Tyrant.
What about when you are the governor and your subordinates betray you and oppose you.
It was a lockdown do you want some portals as well opened up to deliver safely to Silvermoon?
Overall as I said the measures taken in Dalaran was harsh. But those Sunreavers were accused of treason against the state. There was a given order to leave Dalaran and to not harm anyone who would comply. But many chose otherwise and it is understandable! But, I repeat, the ones who died made a choice.
Yes the whole point was to detain the whole bunch or kill them if resisted.
The quest says it itself.
I see.
Not defending Ms. Flip Flop here, I hope I expressed it already in my post.
Sunreavers had bad fate, the innocents who had no military knowledge did not deserve such treatment, but that choice was never given to ones living in Teldressil.
How could that be if they literally crippled their mean of transport while aiming at preventing such?
Why would the civilian population be in any way responsible for “crimes” (that were proven afterwards to not have been the case), some individual may have done without them knowing?
I read you say that Teldrassil civilians weren’t given a choice. Well, these weren’t either.
And I can’t help but notice how much like Liira before you, you seem rather keen on ignoring all the other quests and how they portray a very specific context: these actions were carried out targeting specifically the civilian population the Sunreavers had in Dalaran. And were carried out displaying stuff like torture, beatings or kills.
And I ask again, why is ALL THIS justified? Why is THIS excusable?
How is it that certain people are so keen at pointing fingers at those that defend atrocities…and then draw hoops over quests and events that display these sort of things with such detail?
For every time I read “But these civilians were now considered enemies or criminals, so it’s fine”, I can’t help but stare at the blatant hypocrisy.
You realise that said exact same reasoning could back Sylvanas killing whatever number of NE civilians she may want? That they could be tagged as “Horde enemies” with equal ease as you are doing with these blood elf civilians?
That bit was more addressed towards Liira.
Because they were not meant to leave Dalaaran after Aethas refused to do so?
I agree, not all were responsible for Aethas’ mistake, he put whole faction under risk without any repercussions what would happen to his people if that action came to light.
But they were. Again overextending her powers and the Silver Covenant was cruel to civilians, but I do not see them being piled up in Violet Hold and then smoked up afterwards. The complied citizens were taken to Violet Hold. That’s the difference - Sylvanas’ did it out of spite, when war was over and done no more resistance was left in the tree.
Again, let this Social Justice theme, go! I never justified it I never excused it! I’m merely telling you the situation and the differences between two. I’m saying that there was a solid reason to why Sunreavers were attacked and the ones who chose to stand beside their brethren in fight made their choice and knew the consequences, which was honorable thing if you ask me.
Good thing we are past that point, right?
Hmmm…
In King Anduin’s absence, I have been entrusted with the protection of Alliance citizens.
It feels like lifetimes ago that I helped a young Varian Wrynn secure his throne. Now I am charged with keeping it safe for his son.
The Fourth War took a terrible toll on the Alliance. Our military might has been depleted. Stormwind’s nobles are keen to see our defenses restored.
Reclaiming Stromgarde was a good first step. Perhaps there are other holdings of the old Alliance that could be secured.
This sounds forshadowing.
I am not so keen with the Wc2 story, but he could only refer to either Lordaeron, Gilneas or Silvermoon I guess. Silvermoon is a claim his wife has.
And there have been Datamines of some weired void effect in that strange unused zone next to Quel’Thalas.
We also have had Datamines of Warfronts in Silvermoon and Barrens.
I somehow doubt Blizzard will neglect the Warfront system in SL, since they tend to reuse all of that since Legion.
So maybe we’re up for some more beef with 9.1 or 9.2.