Tyrande in Shadowlands (spoilers)

[Tyrandé-stormrage (Tyrandé)]

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

My argument was that she wasn’t leading anyone at that time.

And your counter was to give her some title and argue that automatically translates into something positive.
In order to be a leader, you need to do something about it besides giving yourself the title.

And during the WotA she didn’t do anything as a leader.

Your only argument so far is her striking a deal to save her own life.

You seriously are refusing to read or comprehend. She was the High Priestess of Elune, Chosen, she did not take that title upon herself, she was leading the sisterhood of night elf priestess’. I am not giving her any titles it is who she was in WOTA. The deal was not to just to save her life it was to recruit allies.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

Having a punctual act of kindness doesn’t qualify her as a good leader.

She shows compassion and makes sound decisions to add the magei to her ranks. at this point nothing will count as anything because you refuse to listen.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

It gets lovely how you gloss over the how exile thing, or how she then proceeded to send in spies and saboteurs against those same elves.

Again you pick events without context, the saboteurs were there after the Blood Elves have joined an enemy faction.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

The only thing Tyrande did, was to call for a meeting that failed

The Alliance was falling apart at that time,the summit was not just for the Worgen which Tyrande did not succeed alone. Tyrande also aided the Dwarves and the Gnomes who were in conflict at that time.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

You seem to have some difficulty naming actual military feats without having to resort to individual ones.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

Even if we are to ignore for a moment that those troops were battling on their own most of the time

So when she does individual feats it does not count, when she leads troops into battle as 1 race vs 6 others it also does not count.
Her compassion does not count.
Her Leading the Night Elves through Millennia of wars does not count.
For you a character must personally hold a weapon and strike the final blow to be considered competent.

Allow me to conclude this useless charade

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

Because her character is often shown as an ineffectual

You think she is useless and provides nothing for lore or the plot, I proved you wrong by stating many events where if she weren’t present the entire lore/universe would have been different.Her aiding others and not being the main character is beside the point. You need to admit that you just dislike/hate her for personal reasons not for competence.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

You seriously are refusing to read or comprehend. She was the High Priestess of Elune, Chosen, she did not take that title upon herself, she was leading the sisterhood of night elf priestess’.

And I asked what did she do when carrying said title. What did she accomplish or achieve at that time, that made said status of any relevance regarding whether she was a good leader from your point of view.

If you are unable to bring any tangible accomplishment, then that’s an empty title that has zero relevance regarding whether she was good or bad at said job.

And no, she didn’t make her deal with Dathremar our some concern to gain allies. She did so to escape prison.

How does that in any way relate to her leadership skills?

@Tyrandé-stormrage

She shows compassion and makes sound decisions to add the magei to her ranks.

She literally exiled those mages a few years later. She turned down said mages all the way down to Cataclysm.
She remained skeptic about them, to the point she had spies and saboteurs infiltrating Silvermoon.

I’ll repeat, if you want to argue about good leader traits, I’d keep diplomacy out of it. It certainly isn’t something she’s good at.

@Tyrandé-stormrage

The Alliance was falling apart at that time,the summit was not just for the Worgen which Tyrande did not succeed alone. Tyrande also aided the Dwarves and the Gnomes who were in conflict at that time.

What are you talking about? Not once in the entire book is any of that mentioned.
She called the meeting because she had a vision about Varian saving them from some unknown new foe (that turned out to be Garrosh).

@Tyrandé-stormrage

when she leads troops into battle as 1 race vs 6 others it also does not count.

If you want to highlight proficiency, I’d stick to any clash that doesn’t end as it logically would.
You’d probably have a stronger case if she had managed to actually defeat the Horde in said hypothetical “1v6”. That would’ve indeed been some impressive feat.

But achieving the expected result isn’t exactly all that shocking.

@Tyrandé-stormrage

Her Leading the Night Elves through Millennia of wars does not count.

Her leading the Night Elf race through millennia of nothingness and peace, isn’t really relevant, no.

Spending several hundred years doing nothing isn’t really hard.
Specially if you are shown resorting to the usual safe cards as soon as you face any relevant challenge.

And in Tyrande case, the panic button was called Malfurion (and a few years later, Alliance).

@Tyrandé-stormrage

You think she is useless and provides nothing for lore or the plot

I think her character as it is now, in its current leader status, is indeed detrimental for the imagery and story of the NE.
The traits it has, make it unfitting of its current position.

@Tyrandé-stormrage

You need to admit that you just dislike/hate her for personal reasons not for competence.

You’ve shown nothing that proves me wrong in my stance.

In order to try and argue militar prowess, you tried to give her the credit of joint efforts that had her as mere participant, or that didn’t involve her at all.

You tried arguing positive leadership traits, out punctual occasions that had the character acting out of personal preferences, and that had nothing to do with leading anybody.

[Tyrandé-stormrage (Tyrandé)]

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

In order to try and argue militar prowess, you tried to give her the credit of joint efforts that had her as mere participant, or that didn’t involve her at all.

You tried arguing positive leadership traits, out punctual occasions that had the character acting out of personal preferences, and that had nothing to do with leading anybody.

I am really done talking to you if you think preparing the defense of Mount Hyjal and leading her troops to battle Archimonde is nothing.
Leading her troops in the defense of Ashenvale against the entire Horde.
Fighting singelhandly against Dragons,Nightmare creatures, and defeating armies of Satyrs…

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Tyrandé-stormrage

I am really done talking to you if you think preparing the defense of Mount Hyjal and leading her troops to battle Archimonde is nothing.

In an argument about whether she is a good leader or not…no, doing the basics isn’t really relevant.
Hyjal wasn’t an example of extraordinary leadership skills, because for the most time she basically did the same as Jaina or Thrall. And in the end, it was Malfurion the one that managed to give them victory.

Same goes to the rest of the examples of this post alone.

None of them are about extraordinary or noteworthy feats of strength that could showcase in any way a particularly good leader.
If Tyrande only had those “average leader” moments, then we wouldn’t be arguing about any of this. She would be considered an average leader.

But the thing is, that we also have quite a few other occasions that show her rather lacking when it comes to leadership.
And if you put both together, you have a character that at best does the basics, but that at worst fails rather spectacularly.

[Tyrandé-stormrage (Tyrandé)]

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

In an argument about whether she is a good leader or not…no, doing the basics isn’t really relevant.
Hyjal wasn’t an example of extraordinary leadership skills, because for the most time she basically did the same as Jaina or Thrall

Every Military mission is comprised of armies, teams, multiple members and being reduced to supporting roles does not make them a bad leader or an unimportant member, her being a central character to the survival of her race as well as Azeroth on multiple occasions makes her experienced enough to Lead. Every victory I had named in every battle was under Tyrande’s rule and Leadership, the president of a country may not participate in a War directly but the war is won under his rule.
If you wanna consider her a bad Leader go ahead, this bad Leader has survived all the wars and battles for 10 thousand years and is still fighting for her people.

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

And in the end, it was Malfurion the one that managed to give them victory.

No it was not Malfurion that managed the victory it was the Wisp spirits.
I will now use arguments the same way you do to show you how absurd your claims are.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Tyrandé-stormrage

them a bad leader or an unimportant member

I described what made Tyrande a bad leader right here:

@Zarao-colinas-pardas

If Tyrande only had those “average leader” moments, then we wouldn’t be arguing about any of this. She would be considered an average leader.

But the thing is, that we also have quite a few other occasions that show her rather lacking when it comes to leadership.
And if you put both together, you have a character that at best does the basics, but that at worst fails rather spectacularly.

If you want it simplified i’ll explain it again:

A particularly good/competent leader is one that has above-average leadership moments or feats, that in some way outweigh the times he fails at it.

Tyrande isn’t a good/competent leader, because most of the time, she is either shown failing rather spectacularly at her job, or barely meeting the minimum required for someone in her position.

Not a single example you named, showcased any kind of feat she actually pulled on her own. And you needed to pull into the same sack, punctual acts of individualism that had close to zero connection to any leadership skill, or random occasions where she is shown acting under better and more proactive leading figures.

@Tyrandé-stormrage

this bad Leader has survived all the wars and battles for 10 thousand years and is still fighting for her people

She has mainly done so by either sheltering behind better men and allies, or by virtue of lacking any noteworthy challenge that could pose a threat to her position.

I find it laughable to constantly read the “10k experience” part, because anyone that has read a bit about the story can note that during said timespan, NEs met close to zero challenges.

What exactly fed her said " leading experience"? Wearing her a*** off on a throne room?

The only noteworthy event that happened was the War of the Satyr. And she proceeded to hurriedly call for both her husband and the druids help to deal with it.

Taking a look at those cases where she proactively took the reins? She was shown ineffectual and rash. And needed some external factor to intervene.

She could’ve been removed from the faction, give her few responsabilities to some capable second such as Jarod or Shandris, and still Malfurion would’ve been able to carry the entire faction all by himself.

[Shiar-steamwheedle-cartel (Shiar)]

Having read through the thread i have to ask,why are you bothering with him Tyrandé…?? It’s abundantly clear he is beyond stubborn and dense with regards to his viewpoints,he cherry picks lore to suit his arguments, that’s assuming it’s even correct Lore and not twisted headcannon which 90% of the time it is I mean this is what he does and in all honesty it’s a waste of energy.

You could give him all the examples in the world and he will still believe the sky is green and 2+2= 500. Look at his posts and the positions he argues for and you realise it’s an exercise in futility to even attempt to debate him on any issue.

[Savotar-argent-dawn (Savotar)]

Zarao is not exactly wrong though.

While Tyrande may have capabilities of a warrior, and is fairly powerful in her own right.

She is not a great leader in any way.

[Elaria-amnennar]

“Then her fate is sealed, my condolences but you must let her go, for your sake as well as her’s”

“My apologies Shandris, it is not easy for me to speak of the night warrior”

“I know not if the night warriors fate can be averted, but i’ll do all that i can to aid you”

“As Elunes Dark power raged within me, Kadarin and i cycled the power into his body”

“The ritual cost us our lives”

“If we attempt it again, we must disperse the power amongst several vessels”

“the night warriors of elune, all who bear the mantle are destined for these groves, we are in need of their aid”

Consider Tyrande dead at this point. The powers that helped her do nothing are too much for her to handle.

[Savotar-argent-dawn (Savotar)]

@Elaria-amnennar

Consider Tyrande dead at this point. The powers that helped her do nothing are too much for her to handle.

Perfect.

She can “help” in the SHadowlands

[Hellaynnea-nemesis]

@Elaria-amnennar

Consider Tyrande dead at this point. The powers that helped her do nothing are too much for her to handle.

Big power boosts gained from characters like the night ritual of Tyrande should have repercussions and consequences, so I am ok with this. There is always a drawback cost to become more powerful in WoW, generally speaking. Night Elves in particular should be aware of this so it shouldn’t be a surprise now.

Blood Elves know this very well, too. Although apparently Void Elves forgot about it as they freely study and use the chaotic void with seemingly no repercussions, for now. But I think as time goes on more and more crazy Void Elves will start to succumb to the whispers and become a danger for everyone, possibly Alleria eventually too (as she said herself)

[Sylarea-argent-dawn]

@Hellaynnea-nemesis

Big power boosts gained from characters like the night ritual of Tyrande should have repercussions and consequences, so I am ok with this. There is always a drawback cost to become more powerful in WoW, generally speaking. Night Elves in particular should be aware of this so it shouldn’t be a surprise now.

That is fine but why even give her that power when there was absolutely no need for it? Like what special thing has she done with those powers?

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Sylarea-argent-dawn

Like what special thing has she done with those powers?

She was able to stand up to the great and almighty Nathanos Blightcaller, of course.

Didn’t you see? He had to flee in the end.

[Hellaynnea-nemesis]

@Sylarea-argent-dawn

That is fine but why even give her that power when there was absolutely no need for it? Like what special thing has she done with those powers?

@Calevarn-ashbringer

She was able to stand up to the great and almighty Nathanos Blightcaller, of course.

Didn’t you see? He had to flee in the end.

Sillyness of Nathanos aside, it’s basically thanks to that new power that she could get Darkshore (and possibly Ashenvale) back so I wouldn’t say it’s a small feat at all.

But now the Night Elves won and she got Darkshore back from the Horde…it’s time to pay the price for that deal, I guess

[Calevarn-ashbringer]

@Hellaynnea-nemesis

it’s basically thanks to that new power that she could get Darkshore (and possibly Ashenvale) back

Are you sure it’s ‘basically’ just the Night Warrior?

Tyrande had an army of Night Elves and Worgen at her back, including the greatest living warrior in Kaldorei history by her side, as well as his deadly assassin and masterful fighter of a sister, plus the most powerful and wisest of all druids.

Meanwhile the Horde was supposedly losing on all fronts and facing a second rebellion as the battle for Darkshore ensued.

I mean can you really say this is a feat accomplished thanks to the Night Warrior? Because if we take the Night Warrior ritual out, what is actually going to change? She has displayed no particularly effective or game-changing powers.

In short, I disagree with your premise.

[Cipmt-veknilash]

@Calevarn-ashbringer

In short, I disagree with your premise.

Looks like you disagree with Blizzard. Alliance is so weak, they need god powers to start challenging Horde. And even then, they cannot succeed.

[Valendrian-nathrezim]

@Hellaynnea-nemesis

Big power boosts gained from characters like the night ritual of Tyrande should have repercussions and consequences, so I am ok with this. There is always a drawback cost to become more powerful in WoW, generally speaking. Night Elves in particular should be aware of this so it shouldn’t be a surprise now.

I´m inclined to agree but in WoW this is not even distributed failry. Jaina and Khadgar are absolute monsters without negative consequences but Tyrande has to pay a toll? Malfurion gets to be the awesome Superdruid but Thrall loses all his shamanistic connection because of reasons? Garrosh empowers himself with the Heart and then goes back to normal but Kael’thas was completely destroyed because of a little bit of Mana or Ley or whatever?

[Tyrandé-stormrage (Tyrandé)]

@Elaria-amnennar

“Then her fate is sealed, my condolences but you must let her go, for your sake as well as her’s”

“My apologies Shandris, it is not easy for me to speak of the night warrior”

“I know not if the night warriors fate can be averted, but i’ll do all that i can to aid you”

“As Elunes Dark power raged within me, Kadarin and i cycled the power into his body”

“The ritual cost us our lives”

“If we attempt it again, we must disperse the power amongst several vessels”

“the night warriors of elune, all who bear the mantle are destined for these groves, we are in need of their aid”

Elaria can you stop with your negativity,I know as Night Elf fans we have been scorned one too many but let us cling to a bit of hope?
The voice over is referring to what happened to previous Night Warriors, the ones that carved the Kaldorei Empire from the Trolls. We do not know how it will end up for Tyrande. In my opinion Tyrande will surpass or achieve what the others could not, she will overcome the power craze, either surviving with the Night Warrior empowerment or letting it go by the end of Shadowlands without dying. THEY WOULDN’T DARE KILL HER !

@Hellaynnea-nemesis

Sillyness of Nathanos aside, it’s basically thanks to that new power that she could get Darkshore (and possibly Ashenvale) back so I wouldn’t say it’s a small feat at all.

Honestly it would be nice if that was reflected in game.

@Hellaynnea-nemesis

But now the Night Elves won and she got Darkshore back from the Horde…it’s time to pay the price for that deal, I guess

There was no one special defending Darkshore for the Horde, it was just a bunch of nameless NPCs fighting some super OP heroes, there was no need for the ritual. They need to show how potent the Night Warrior is, and why it was necessary, I think they will do that in the battle with Sylvanas and the Jailor.

[Elaria-amnennar]

@Tyrandé-stormrage

Elaria can you stop with your negativity,I know as Night Elf fans we have been scorned one too many but let us cling to a bit of hope?
The voice over is referring to what happened to previous Night Warriors, the ones that carved the Kaldorei Empire from the Trolls. We do not know how it will end up for Tyrande. In my opinion Tyrande will surpass or achieve what the others could not, she will overcome the power craze, either surviving with the Night Warrior empowerment or letting it go by the end of Shadowlands without dying. THEY WOULDN’T DARE KILL HER

The message is clear, Night Warriors die. Blizz has been trying hard to make Tyrande unlikable and look like a villain so they can kill her off. Also these voice lines are talking to Shandris so this one is not a previous Night Warrior. They also made clear that 8.1 was the conclusion and revenge for Teldrassil, now Tyrande has to pay the price for that.

It’s Tyrande that’s dying there

[Cipmt-veknilash]

@Tyrandé-stormrage

let us cling to a bit of hope?

lasciate ogni speranza voi ch’entrate