Tyrande is now literally Illidan 2.0 lol

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Not deniable. I agree. Still doesn’t make her Illidan.

Every race on Azeroth has a religion, norms, taboos, etc. Are they idiotic only if they preach peace and not messing with corrupting manipulative powers? Looking at Illidan and his descent to madness and anger upon gaining demonic powers only proves their point, honestly. Plus they are not the only society preaching against void/fel.

Illidan simply “didn’t bow down to the idiotic rules of NElves”. He actively battled and hurt the Azerothian armies when in Outland.

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Straw man argument. Just because i call the nelf rules in this example idiotic doesnt mean i dont call other rules idiotic as well. Idiotic rules are the reason why Gul’dan became what he was for instance.

Was he mad and angry tho? He just didnt bother to make everything PC. He just did it. The biggest idiot in regards of dealing with Illidan was Malfurion anyway. For example when he absorbed the Skull of Gul’dan as it was required to deal with the present forces of the Legion there he was exiled yet again. A Forest can heal. A world ruled by the Legion can not.

Questionable methods as i stated in another comment. However, we assumed the worst and that was all explained during Legion. Basically we did a giant oopsie.

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No clue what that means. I simply looked at what the rule that Illidan broke was. Societies did not accept fel/void. Night Elves were no exception, and the same rule exists elsewhere. A society creating deviants is nothing new.

Again, why idiotic? The Night Elves saw what the fel demons did to them. What they were doing to the planets of the universe. We have benefit of hindsight, Malfurion did not. They believed that fel was a corrupting force, they saw fel as a source of their grief, and Illidan wanted to fight demons… by becoming part demon himself. Malfurion did not want his brother becoming what their enemy was, and when that happened anyway, refused to trust him.

So Illidan was battling the Legion by… amassing Legion forces to his side. By using the same power source demons used - fel. He made full-on Orc armies pumped by fel. He had Dreadlords under command. He made a deal with Kil’Jaeden. He duped his own ally, Akama. His actions give plenty evidence of the deviance he would go through to “reach the goal” - not different from Sylvanas, honestly. Go against the grain, fight your own people, power yourself through evil forces…

And the Illidan/Demon Hunter retcon in Legion is awful.

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No they were no exception. However considering everything else pretty much failed it was a necessity. And it worked. At best they should have come to the conclusion of: “ok guys, listen. Fel is highly addictive and only a few druids have used it so far (actually they came later, but there are some. Emerald Circle to be precise) and well Illidan. Soooo…DONT freaking use it unless ABSOLUTELY neccesary. No training, no nothing. Booh. Bad. And Illi, you dont teach anyone that stuff. Or otherwise you go far far far far far faaaaaar away. Like some distant planet or something. And if you go bad bad you will be executed. Good? Good”.

And i specically stated the Gul’Dan example because the rules of the Orcs are the precise reason why AU Gul’Dan became what he was. Without this rule he may not have been corrupted as someone that is abandoned and on the brink of death while thirsting for revenge is more easily corrupted as someone who isnt.

Illidan showed no signs of corruptions during that scenario. He acquired power. Used power. Defeated the Legion forces present. And without even starting to raise a finger followed Malfurions order of exile. Should have been a dead giveaway that his brother is once again not corrupted.

They also believed arcane magic is bad. While it was more about them overdoing it which caused the Legion to get attracted.

Sun Tzu says: “To know your enemy , you must become your enemy”

And said demons remained Loyal to him even after he was believed to have died. Also not every demon is automatically aligned with the Legion. That has been made clear.

Questionable methods. As stated. Probably not the best race to have them drink blood i agree. However less problematic given that the source of origin was not running around freely like it was the case with Mannoroth and as such didnt cause THOSE fel orcs to be as braindead (literally) as the ones that fought on Azeroth.

As does the Army of the Light.

Either do that or get wiped out in this very moment since he didnt have the power to defy him at that point.

Akama duped him infact. Akama believed him to be another Legion pawn. And this spiraled out of control. Can Akama be blamed? No. He still betrayed him first.

I can still smell Kerrigan 2.0

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Pointed this out: we have the benefit of hindsight. Those people didn’t. The Orcs were not to know that forcing a deviant into societal norm would bring about disaster like it did. For them, it was standard. Quell it. It sounds dictatorial, but subconsciously, we all prefer a rule of certain norms that ensure people do not descend into chaos. Fel/void are considered chaotic powers. Looking from an objective outside perspective, we can think that these powers can be used for good. But when socialized into certain beliefs, it is very, very hard to rise out of them.

Take real life. You expect everyone around you to wear clothes as they move out in public. When you see someone walking around completely bare, your immediate instinct is to think “that guy is doing something abnormal. I should tell him to wear something or stay away from him.” To societies worshipping a certain deity, the same instinct arises. And when they see someone is too far gone, they ostracize them. They aren’t idiotic for it, they’re people of habit, of socialization. They did not create the problem, rather tried to erase what they saw as a problem out of their group.

Being consumed by fel equals corruption. Explaining to a Night Elf at the time by saying “When a Demon Hunter consumes fel power, the power is always alive within him - asking him to rebel, to join the Legion, and the consumer has to battle it day and night to keep his will intact” will not make them sympathize - it would leave them flabbergasted and disgusted. What they saw as corruption had already happened to Illidan. He chose to use powers they considered corrupting. Therefore they thought him corrupted. Simple as.

Night Elves were not taught in the art of war and Sun Tzu.

Sorry for labelling that wrongly, then. He amassed demon forces, and Azeroth saw all demons as bad, given the plight they had been put through by them. They didn’t want to take chances.

Two points that again, we can empathize with as objective spectators, but the Night Elves cannot. Does not make us more knowing and NElves idiotic. Just different thinkers and believers, They could not ever see themselves cosying up to the enemy for any reason. They’d rather fight and die against it.

Akama was duped the moment Illidan refused to give up the Black Temple, as he had erstwhile promised he would do. Illidan took up the holy temple all for himself and his purposes. He turned it into a soldier-churning factory. Akama saw all of it as evil and realized that allying with an equally powerful person - Maiev - to drive him out would work.

And NElves eventually agreed to let in the Shelen’dralar into their fold, because they had done things to prove they were not magic-addicted crazies.

All in all my point of contention is the idea that Night Elves or Orcs are stupid because they didn’t know a deviant they had exiled would either harm like they ended up doing (I think it actually proved their point with Gul’dan that his stubborn want to use fel over caring to stick with his people corrupted him), or they simply found it difficult to empathize with them given their thousands-of-year-old religion and upbringing.

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Not on this level no. However its still a cultural behavior i would call “neanderthalic”.

You are mistaken dear ma’am. I would probably start laughing. Maybe even film it.

They casted those away that peered into the void and lost themself and were literally “crazy maniacs” as a result. This did not apply to Gul’Dan.

He wasnt consumed by it. He used it. He was still not corrupted.

Fair enough. Banish them then instead of putting him in a prison for 10k years. This goes for the first contact. The second Malfurion should have come to the realization that “Hmm…my brother even after 10k years and getting another power boost still didnt become a legion puppet. Should think about it. Tell him to away for the time being just to be safe but still think about it”.

So basically like the belfs just without a brain. I mean Lor’Themar banished the Void elfs not because they were “corrupted” but because they posed a threat to the sunwell since they attracted void entities. He still wouldnt try to bring a genocide on them as long as they stay the F away from the sunwell.

There was probably some Pandaren running around with that name.

Then they should have started to think and be “hmm, are ALL demons EVIL? Well as long as they stay on outland we can try to do some research on that”. But ye sure i get your point. They still could have put in more research.

The nelfs in the very least knew precisely well how strong the Leaders of the Legion were. And KJ was one of the three.

And ye sure i agree with the rather fight and die then to ally themself with them even if temporary. But that would have just caused Azeroth to perish. Something Illidan didnt want.

Jumping to conclusions is what he did. He didnt even bother to adress this with Illidan. And Illidan is hardly to blame for ripping a portion of his soul out (rather than just flat out killing him btw. As he could have) after he went to his Nemesis that was hell bent on killing/imprisoning him (even after Tyrande and Malfurion pardoned him during TFT. And Malfurion has the power by law to tell Maiev to piss off)

AU Gul’Dan was never intending to use Fel Magic until KJ spoke with him at the Throne of the Elements. His clan treated him like poop because he was weak and crippled and that he didnt accept his place at the bottom of the clan as a foot mattress (actually it appears this background story also applies to our Gul’dan)

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Then I guess all societies are Neanderthalic - and this time I am not strawmanning, you quoted a portion where I state every society on this planet does something like this on a certain scale. Going with the grain instead of deviance. Orcs did what they thought would keep their people bound together - and that was expelling someone using magic they consider chaos.

So, openly mock them and take mirth at how they’re being. Still a far cry from asking them over for a beer.

I mean, I already explained why they considered those people too far gone further ahead in the same paragraph. :stuck_out_tongue: Because they thought that was how it works. And that does not make them ignorant. It makes them rational in how they understand something based on a reasoning - whether or not it is a reasoning you consider valid or not, is not what you can decide for them. You can call them stupid, unscientific, emotional - but they had their own logic which does not make them objectively irrational. They have their explanations. Past experiences, loss of life and loved ones, a religion they were brought up under and lived harmoniously with, etc.

They could have killed Illidan. But likely Tyrande and Malfurion thought that out of the question, because they still cared. Jailtime occurs as a form of punishment, and they might have hoped that one day he would snap to his senses. He did not for ten thousand years, but that’s their stubbornness. Letting him free would have been also out of the question, because that’s letting loose a person you know (or you think you know) will try to do something foolish if allowed to. You have no clue what length he would go to if he was allowed to pursue the path he kept saying would work out (but you don’t think it will). This is just speculation on why they imprisoned him instead of either giving him full freedom or killing him. Honestly they should have just killed him, in my opinion.

I mean, if Lor’themar’s reason is the tangible affectation to the Sunwell if VElves came near it, why is the NElves’ less tangible affectation towards everything they stood for and believed any less valid?

And that had never happened, anywhere. Warlocks were already outlawed in all of Azeroth. Necromancy, void magic, fel magic, all are considered dark arts because of the horrors and evil connotated to them. Fel manifestations had destroyed worlds, killed innocents without mercy, hit people with several losses that erased any possible sympathy they could have had for fel as a whole.

Science exists in our real life world, but in a tribal, “savage”-like society of Night Elves, their rationality drew from outside of science. It’s hard to be told for you, as someone who knows basic science, that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way around. To you that is a laughable notion. Now replace that idea with the possibility that maybe, fel beings aren’t actually evil all the time, and replace us with Night Elves. They would laugh at that.

Except he tried in his own ways - because he was a weak Broken and could never confront Illidan more aggressively - and was brushed aside like an irritating flea each time. Illidan used him as a vessel to gain intel about Maiev. He could have killed Akama, but he wanted to find out what it was that seemed suspicious about this person. I think it was through Akama that Illidan lured Maiev and her team to a spot only to ambush them all with his demons and Demon Hunters, but I could be remembering the book wrong. Been a year since I read it.

As for Tyrande and Malfurion potentially telling Maiev to hold back, I wonder if they knew what Maiev was up to at all with her team of Warden.

That’s my bad, then. I remembered this wrong for sure. Sorry.

Edit to say that the first point I addressed in this reply seems to have been invalidated now, but my stance that beliefs shape us to a very strong degree still holds.

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Im more on about “youre a cripple? Youre worthless. Go be a boot licker or just die”. I wanted to point out a different regime that shared this PoV but i decided not to.

Laughing is not mocking. There is a difference between being amused and making fun out of someone.

You imply i would ask anyone over for a beer i meet on the streets.

To a sense that aligned with Malfurion. Who was in the end proven incorrect. It was on Malfurions orders that he got imprisoned.

Which happened during WCIII. Twice.

Because the Velfs even if they dont intend to harm the Sunwell (as proven with Alleria) still possed an automatic threat. Its been made crystal clear during the Nightborne Allied quest what happens if a Velf comes close to the Sunwell. A reason why he banished them from close proximity to the sunwell. He didnt order them imprisoned or killed however just told them to go away and do their thing somewhere else. This had nothing to do with Lor’Themars or the Belfs personal opinion of the Voidelfs but rather what had transpired first hand without any bad intention from Alleria.

Warlocks enslaved demons. Different matter. And also they were allowed within Orgrimmar under Thrall until Garrosh made his purge.

Yet the Deathknights were welcomed by the leadership at least.

Then i can still say that i know better than they do. And yes as i said i agree that the notion of distaste from the nelfs can be understood. However Illidan had proven that he wasnt as vile and corrupted as they claimed he would be. Including after 10k years where maiev was still hell bent on “he be evil!”.

However the nelfs arent even open to anything that doesnt allign with their believes. Their arrogance is unrivaled. The only one semi open is Malfurion (as long as it didnt involve illidan) but even he simps the moment tyrande speaks. Just looking at WCIII it literally took an entity that is capable of wiping the entire nelf race off the face of the world if he so desired to get Tyrande to shut her trap for once (Medivh) where she was constantly going “Alliance bad. Horde bad. You cut trees! Everything bad. You killed Cenarius. REEEEE!!!” while totally neglecting the fact that Cenarius death is solely on her and cenarius in the first place and that other races cant magically create wood out of thin air (and she was aware of that. Given they had already contact with races such as the pandaren)

He didnt ask him however.

He created the shade of Akama the moment he realized Akama betrayed him. He then forced him to deal with Maiev ye. But first Akama was punished severely. However Illidan can be blamed that he didnt spare the ashtongue as promised even if he meant it as further punishment that was still a D-Move.

Malfurion knew she would hunt him until the very end. He didnt bother to go after her because she was already “too far gone” in her rage and desire to recapture him and as such didnt care outside of hoping she would cause more damage than Illidan in the process. This scenario also made Maiev quite the hypocrite given she questions both Tyrande and Malfurion if they dont have any sense of justice while it was Malfurion who ordered Illidans imprisonment in the first place

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Hahahah :'D

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Well at least she is doing something now, I love new Tyrande. That cinematic of her pwaning Nathanos hitted just right. More of that blizz please.

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Once, his allies broke him out. Second time, Tyrande let him out after seeing what was happening - and hoping that maybe, she could bury what she had done wrong by him all those years ago when she agreed on his imprisonment. Yet, understandably, Illidan was not up for that.

Was not the many, many times the fel beings of the Legion attacked and conquered mercilessly also enough proof to not trust fel beings in general? Is what they witnessed not crystal clear proof that they couldn’t trust demons?

That statement ignores the events that led to its happening. Night Elves weren’t Tirion. Their equivalent of Death Knights - Illidan - did not go through the same events Death Knights themselves did, which was betrayal and the influence of the Light on the Death Knights present on holy ground. Illidan never had a moment of wavering like Mograine did on that day.

It’s hard to let go of something you staunchly believe. Something that has kept you going for millennia. It would be like telling Illidan that the path of demons and fel he took is bad and wrong - and he will still go for it, anyway.

A couple agreeing with each other isn’t simping… why would Malfurion seek Tyrande’s feminine approval if they are already married? What would he get out of agreement? It is very possible that he just agrees with her. No motivations, not necessarily any bias. Besides, he has power - lots and lots of it, he’s a demigod - but beings wised up to the world mellow out with age, and exercise more and more restraint with the power that they have.

Except now, after seeing Teldrassil, he won’t stop Tyrande inheriting the Night Warrior power. He could very possibly be just as angry. He might feel sorrowful later though, when it comes to light that she could die from being consumed by it.

“Victory is ours, oh lord.” Akama said.
“Yes, faithful Akama, it is.” Illidan said. Was there a note of mockery in the way he stressed “faithul”? It mattered not.

“You have freed the Temple of Karabor.”
“We have freed the Temple of Karabor.”
“May I ask when I may begin, my Lord?”
“Begin what?”

A cold hand clutched at Akama’s heart. He looked up at Illidan’s face. He could not read the expression there. The demon hunter’s features were a mask. A strip of runecloth concealed his empty sockets. Perhaps it was to be as Akama had feared all along.

“We must purify the Temple, Lord, and prepare it to be returned to holiness. My brethren and I will work day and night to finish the required rituals. It will be as if Magtheridon’s vile touch never tainted this place.”
Illidan nodded slowly. “There will be time for that afterward.”
“Afterward, Lord Illidan?”
“After my business is concluded. There is much to do before Outland is freed.”
“But the temple is free now, is it not, Lord?”
“Nowhere is free while the Burning Legion reaches out for conquest…”

For the sake of brevity, I won’t continue this. But in a later line Akama thinks to himself that he has a contingency plan for the Betrayer if he did that.

Maiev is undeniably a hypocrite. I think her no different from Illidan.

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There’s huge difference between Illidan and Tyrande. So while there’s a possibility for Illidan and even Sargeras to be entirely redeemed, there’s no such option for Tyrande because Tyrande is entirely fueled by vengeance. She’s not fueled by a grander truth. She wants retribution, death and justice. Her motivation is simply hatred.

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And let’s hope that the night warriors of old would be able to help her in ardenweald.

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Let’s not. Her armor and warglaives should be lootable transmog.

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Ye but techincally he still deserved to be punished for his past crimes according to them. He was not forgiven. And in the end Tyrande still doubts everything he said and Malfurion does so as well given their reactions to his farewells in Legion.

Mistrust them yes. Not voiding the possibility of all of them being pure evil.

There was still the possibility of this being Arthas’ plan. After all he created all of them. Who was providing the safety that they wouldnt turn midwar and fight their own “allies”? Especially while being in close proximity to Arthas while being in Northrend or more specially icecrown itself.

Ye but as i said the alternatives of what his people were doing were semi successful or flat out pointless.

Im specifally aiming at the encounter with the Horde and Alliance during WCIII here. He didnt even bother to ask what makes her believe that or what happened. He just went along with it. Something that forced Medivh to step in and tell Tyrande to shut her trap.

Different scenario. This i wouldnt call simping. Simply because he has all the reasons to be in enrage.

Well Illidan said it himself. He wasnt done yet. Akama thought he was done but now with Legion etc we fully know that he was not.

Ye im fine with that comparison.

Btw, if you respond again i wont respond until somewhere in the late night when i wake up again. Currently on a swapped day/night cycle and i cba to start thinking at this time anymore for lore regarding talk. I will respond however. Just later.

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Tyrande only took over 10,000 years to understand Illidan because Blizzard took 13 to completely rewrite his story to make him the good guy, instead of a selfish jackass who wanted to make sure that he was the loved and revered hero who eventually realised that that’s not how you become a hero

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He said in a game with different types of magic (able to empower weapons btw), space ships and undead. :nerd_face: :clown_face:

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Tyrande is never going to be not the 1/10 that illidan was.
Unlike her, Master Illidan was usefull and smart besides an amazing strategist :upside_down_face:

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The Armor on the post in the video is on wheels, it is not stuck in the ground.

Nathanos is arguably even more difficult to knock down considering that he’s a trained Ranger with a lot of combat experience. He is also not caught off-guard in the video, as he’s repeatedly handling his own bow before Tyrande fires an arrow at him.

You need to have the right stance to properly shoot a bow, and seeing as how Nathanos is shooting his, being as trained and experienced as he is then It is safe to assume that his footing is incredibly solid in that scene.

“The Night Warrior” is a completely meaningless title. In fact – You’re only proving my point that Tyrande is a massive mary sue for if the title does mean something then she went from being a mere priestess with no direct combat experience to being what she is now solely through performing one relatively simple ritual that gave her ALL of her combat skill, power and reflexes.

And if the title does not mean anything, like I said it doesn’t, then that means that Tyrande is still only a priestess with little to no direct combat experience or training and she should not even be physically capable of firing a 180-200 pound bow in the first place.

Yes, 5-10 centimeters at best. It did not send the ‘guy’ flying over 15 meters, off of its “feet”.

There’s overexaggerating to create a dramatic effect and then there’s whatever they did in the cinematic.

Like I said – Anime arrow.

This is the only instance of an arrow hitting another character in a cinematic where it blows them off their feet and that far back. Even in the Shadowlands cinematic where Sylvanas (Another character who gained immense power out nowhere simply because the writers decided that she should have it) fights Bolvar, her arrows do not do this, despite her having the ‘physical strength’ to break off massive builders of stone and ice and then hurl them at Bolvar.

You’ll probably say “But that’s Bolvar, he’s the Lich King and he’s stronger than Nathanos!”, but that logic does not track because Sylvanas’ arrows also do not do it in the BFA cinematic where she fires arrows at regular alliance soldiers in the siege tower.

And yes, Sylvanas does already have her powers here because she shows them off for the first time ever in this very cinematic.

This would indicate that they gave Tyrande the anime arrows solely to make her appear more dangerous or powerful, which is nothing but poor writing.

If your character gimmick completely defies the rules of physics that you yourself have set in your own fictional universe and the only way that you can possibly justify having it in is “MAGIC LUL”, then the entire concept is immediately a bad and poorly written one by default.

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Damn your epic medieval mythbusing video really debunked a magically empowered arrow shot by an individual empowered by a goddess. Very cool, dude.

:poop: takes and no clue about lore. Priestesses of the Moon have been the ELITE of the kaldorei army since WotA. Later in WC III they are depicted on sabers with bows. Likewise, night elves are taller and more athletic than human women, not to mention their active general lifestyle. You have no clue what you are talking about at all.

:clown_face:

Totally not caught off-guard, being busy shooting arrows -at us- and being unimpressed. Tyrande ambushes him out of the fog.

Literal incarnation of the Night Warrior (=Vengeful, dark side of Elune) after a ritual no one else survived for millenia.

This man is losing it. It’s the exact opposite of “simple”, stated several times in-game. She was one of the more powerful characters ever since WOTA (ten millenia ago in lore btw).

Read up some lore, you’re just embarassing yourself. Again, priestesses are the ELITE soldiers of the night elves, and their LEADERS.

Yes, because her intention wasn’t to bind him? You can manipulate magic to your desired effect in this game. She didn’t want to knock him back. To say it is impossible for a magically empowered arrow to knock someone back in this high fantasy game is just laughable.

Cringe

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