Utility talents: towards a better version of WoW matchmaking

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

I don’t think that’s what the game needs to make everyone a homogonised everyone can do everything class. Just boring then.

I’m picky because I don’t want to be a full melee comp. I want a group with a variety of classes. One warrior is fine but a whole group is awful if you have affixes to deal with. One is fine because they bring the damage and the AP buff. I don’t want all caster group because interrupts are horrendous.

I don’t consider it a great hardship to open LFG, apply to five groups and wait for one to take me.

[Skullfox-argent-dawn]

I would sooner ask for a LFG group finder for mythics… rather than making every class able to do all the same and being capable all of all the same stuff as basic abilities honestly…

Blizzard made our classes unique for a reason. And even if you made every class have all unique class abilities as basic abilities… Youd still not get invited too mythic+

If you have ever made a m+ key your self before… the moment you have a tank or a healer in your group. You would see how quickly your group finder gets spammed with DPS.

I don’t think that classes being able too do unique roles for the group is the reason people aren’t being invited.

Id rather remove class spesific affixes sooner than just making everyone and anybody and all classes across being the same class in different wrapping. Where everybody can just do the same things.

Afflicted and incorperal affixes are such affixes. That only certain classes can deal with. When your a warrior during either of these weeks? xD its like gg… Might as well just play something else…

[Chrimo-silvermoon]

I think he is taking it too far but definitely some changes are needed for the top contender classes. The problem is nobody wants to remove anything from the classes that got everything (top of my head: mage, ret and vdh), and the no utility class do the same or sometimes even less damages than these classes.

Some quick changes would provide real improvement for the no utility class and it could be done via talent point in the class tree (aka add incapacitate to the war skills but with a node choice between stormbolt and incapacitate), it will right away ensure Warrior are not left on the bench during Incorpo weeks.

The problem with no utility is not that you can’t run +10 with pugs, it just require that you run your own keys to do so or prepare yourself to wait a long time in queue which is annoying when you want to push. There are too much fotm people to be able to make a mark in the dps waiting list.

Easy solution is indeed to roll with community/ guild but the blocker is still there on specific weeks. Add to this all the youtube fanatics that will ask for OP comp for a +6 and you get that feeling of playing to wait in queue.

[Uda-uldum]

OK. So this is my opinion :

Homogenization to that degree is not the way to go in my opinion. The way forward is normalization.

And the coolest solution (in my opinion) is two fold :

FIRST : to accept the fact that there will ALWAYS be a meta comp.

So by abandoning the idea that by balancing throughput you can make for a more balanced and fun gameplay for all, you accept the fact that its an impossible task. Because it is.

Assuming that blizzard did a mathematically perfect tuning, where ALL classes do exactly the same DPS/HPS/tank… then… the meta would be governed by raid buff synergy and utility.

If on the other hand they do a lousy job and there is 1 or 2 OP specs, then the meta will be the utility and raid buffs that those specs are missing.

So. What to do?

So you dont need to give ALL utility to EVERYONE. Just to instead of trying to give something unique to everyone, you group them up and spread them. What would make a spec unique would be a specific permutation of a group of buffs. And HOW they are applied.

Shamans for example have Ancestral Vigor. Which offers DOUBLE the stamina of a priest Fortitude, except that fortitude is permanent, while Vigor needs to be maintained constantly via riptides.

However. Priest have fortitude by default, while Shamans need to spend 2 talent points. THAT is something that can be normalized.

With changes like these you don’t homogenize. But you normalize. Which is a different concept. And by doing so, you allow for more varied comps because you will have multiple combinations of classes that give you the “meta” buffs you want.

AND maintaining the unique flavor of each spec.

SECOND : Dungeon design.

I think that the 1-shot/healer DPS dilemma needs to stop.

Right now, dungeon scaling is for both damage and health of mobs. And eventually there must be a limit where its mathematically impossible to time keys. That is the purpose of scaling.

But. For the past 12 years there has been 2 fields : (A) The “limit” is mob HP (DPS). Like it was for most of SL. OR, (B) the “limit” is player HP (survivability).

In scenario one you promote offensive utility. In scenario 2 you promote defensive utility. And a “balance” is unachievable. Impossible to apply for each and every pull. You always end up in extreme cases of either scenario. Never somewhere in the middle.

So blizzard has to force artificially this “middle” ground. One way to do it, is to limit the damage to a maximum value.

So it scales as intended, to the point where things almost 1-shot you. But not quite. But after that, future key levels scale mob HP by DOUBLE the amount, to compensate no further damage scaling.

You will then end up with dungeons where you are barely alive, where you have to use all deff CDs on time, and your healer is busy healing. BUT, you ON TOP have to provide maximum DPS.

And this gives more value to balancing specs based on performance. Because performance will be something that matters.

And this is my super lengthy parragraph on what I think about your suggestion : I dont like homogenization. But I like normalization.

[Meurose-hyjal]

@Uda-uldum

So you dont need to give ALL utility to EVERYONE. Just to instead of trying to give something unique to everyone, you group them up and spread them. What would make a spec unique would be a specific permutation of a group of buffs. And HOW they are applied.

I disagree, the variance between the unique designs of new utility spells given to all classes would not achieve viability across all comps.
It would probably result in more of the same.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Meurose-hyjal

I disagree, the variance between the unique designs of new utility spells given to all classes would not achieve viability across all comps.

Unless you’re pushing the very top keys in the world, comp barely matters. It’s only for stuff like incorporeal/afflicted/raging(in some packs in some dungeons) where it’s bad if you don’t got anything to deal with it.

And you of course shouldn’t stack moonkins with 1 min CD on their interrupt. But other than such things, comp barely matters.

[Uda-uldum]

@Meurose-hyjal

I disagree, the variance between the unique designs of new utility spells given to all classes would not achieve viability across all comps.
It would probably result in more of the same.

And why not?

You want fortitude from priest? What are your options?

Today? Priest. There are other classes that offer “some” variation of a +stamina but none are good enough. Shaman Vigor. Warrior shout are 2 that come to mind.

By “buffing” Vigor by making it baseline, or 1 talent point. And increase its duration to 15s. And warrior shout reduce CD to 30/40s and increase %stamina to 15% you achieve the SAME thing, but different ways of applying it.

So now. To get fortitude “effect” in your party you got warriors, shamans, and priests that can provide the same exact thing. But differently.

That is called normalization.

Giving Fortitude to Shamans, Warriors and Priest… achieves the same fortitude “effect” but this is called Homogenization.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Meurose-hyjal

I don’t think this ever happens, if a pack needs stops, then you need stops. If a boss needs a decurse, then you need a decurse.
You should be able to play any spec and tag in any group, without the comp becoming unviable.

The game has plenty of stops. All kinds of stops.

The issue here is that there is a class of stop - the AoE stun, closely followed by the AoE silence/interrupt - which are so vastly superior to all other forms of crowd control that they all look like a complete joke in comparison.

Therefore, classes who have these, or a lot of these, get a lot of invites.

It’s also causing problems in PvP by the way. A lot of the time, the issues in PvE and PvP are direct mirrors of each other, but manifested differently. In M+ it manifests as class imbalance and convenience, but PvP it manifests as class imbalance and really annoying disruption-micro-cc-based gameplay, but it’s the same thing.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

@Meurose-hyjal

Well, let’s take an example. It’s a tyrannical incorporeal sanguine week, and you’re doing Uldaman.
Here’s the utility you will need:

• “real” BL and BRez, both are pretty important in tyra
• Enough CCs, stops and kicks to comfortably go through packs
• Better have a decurse in case any curse cast goes through
• Displacement ablities for sanguine and/or healing reduction
• 2 incaps with 30s CD in the group to avoid any cast going through

You’re excluding a good portion of comps with these requirements, not only comps stacking classes.
I want to see a version of this game that cannot restrict viable compositions as it does right now.

I mean, i have timed up to +12 without real bloodlust or decurse in uldaman.
When you do not stack classes you will probably have enough interrupts/cc’s.

I admit i do not know what incaps are so not sure what you look for.

Displacement you do by LOS in uldaman.

@Meurose-hyjal

You’re excluding a good portion of comps with these requirements, not only comps stacking classes.
I want to see a version of this game that cannot restrict viable compositions as it does right now.

You are the one who seem to exclude a lot of classes. But you should not. When you have 5 different classes in your group you should have enough stuff.