Utility talents: towards a better version of WoW matchmaking

Community General Discussion
1

Hello everyone,

I wanted to start a discussion on the utility meta in 5 man content.

Modern WoW’s most popular feature is Mythic+, and it is no wonder as it’s the only on demand, infinitely replayable, challenging, PvE content.
However, many people are frustrated with this content because, ironically, it is not PUG friendly. The game is slowed down by the viability of comps, and the behaviors it encourages:

  • waiting for an evoker to tag because they have mass disenrage for raging weeks
  • refusing every war in afflicted and incorporeal weeks
  • waiting for a VDH to tag, ignoring every other tanks
  • waiting for a BL/BR class to tag, ignoring every other spec
  • etc…

Dungeons are not a DPS race anymore, but a survival game in which you need the most tools to make your life easier. The viability of a spec is almost never a question of its throughput, but a question of its utility.
Modern WoW should enable ANY combination of 5 man groups to be viable, at any levels. This is the main takeaway you should have reading this post.

So, how do we fix this ?

Specs should have access to a list of utility talents to enhance their viability.
In a nutshell, every spec should have access to most basic utility: Bloodlust, Battle rez, Dispels, Crowd Control, Stuns, Incap, Disenrage, Mass disenrage, Roots…
The goal is not to add 20 keybinds for everyone here. It should work the same as the PvP talents, you can pick a small number of utility talents, to cater to the challenges you’re about to face.
A 5 man group should be able curate its utility and pick the best tools for the challenges they will face.

You’re a war and it’s afflicted/incorporeal week? Pick a dispel/incap.
It’s raging week? Pick a disenrage.
The dungeon needs a lot of CCs? Pick some.
The dungeon needs a decurse? Pick it.

If done right, meaning that we do not end up with specs already stacked with utility becoming even more of a one man army, this will open up the 5 man content to new heights.
With any comp being viable:

  • LFG could be replaced with an automated matchmaking system
  • More viable comps, means more groups forming at any time
  • No more specs viewed as sub-par, and being avoided by default

This is my take on improving 5 man content, especially M+. I intentionally left out an important part of a viability of a spec in M+: survivability. This is because all specs already have defensive options. So it’s more of a question of class tuning.

Please discuss about the idea of adding Utility Talents to the game:
Is this bloat, a useless addition over the current class trees?
Should the Utility Talents have survival options?
How many Utility Talent should we be able pick?
What utilities should stay class/spec specific, if any?
How should we restrict Utility Talents for specs already stacked like VDH?
What would you want to see in the Utility Talents?

7 Likes
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I am more wondering about what keylevel you talk about. I for sure am not making groups with those things in mind for the keys i am doing.
What i don’t like is making every spec the same.

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I’m talking about any key level where comp might be an issue, due to an affix or a particular utility needed to make the dungeon easier.

I totally get that making all class the same is an issue, but i’m only talking about giving specs more utility. The way it can be done can still fulfill the class fantasy, and the way to implement utility for classes that don’t look like they should have it could come with small adjustments.
For instance, it would be weird that a war could dispel something that is 40yd away, so they might have to go melee to do that.

There’s many ways to approach this, but the goal of the disucssion is not to make every spec the same, but make every spec viable in 5 man content.

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Imo every spec IS viable. Except only for the real high end. I have timed also this season quite some +10> with a warrior.

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Players are the biggest problem.

6

Stop homogenizing everything.

There are going to be comps. If some comps have too much utility and/or their utility is too useful, look into it by a case-by-case basis.

I think it’s a lot better if selecting a different set of classes actually changes how you approach a dungeon. We picked our character because of how it plays - and if you want to run alts, it’s really great if each alt approaches dungeons in another way for the sake of variety if nothing else.

The issue right now is that AoE stuns are stupidly good.

Frankly, if you gave every character every utility provided they spec right, then throughput becomes what determines the winner, and now you should probably just pick the same class 5 times for max throughput while still having all the utility anyway. That’s much worse.

3 Likes
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Here’s an idea, to all the people having this issue.
BE THE CHANGE!

Invite the warrior to your grps, or the rogue. Don’t wait for blizzard to make your char the number 1 pick.

Every spec is viable in 5man content.

Not every spec is viable for a rank 1 key.

1 Like
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Does not appeal to me at all. I like that different classes bring different things to the game.

I also wouldn’t use an automated system to group up for Mythic plus, I’m picky what teams I join. And I’m not talking meta groups.

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Well, that’s what I’m saying. I want to invite the warrior, but how could I invite him if the last spot in my group needs to have an incap? Right now, I would be forced to ignore him.

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Then you should have thought of it when you invited the other 3. Could have taken the WW monk for example.

Every class shouldn’t have everything.

2 Likes
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Then you have already invited 2 warriors. You are excused.

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Well, I’m advocating for a system that just lets you run the comp you want with minimal downside utility wise. I don’t want to tell my friend that he can’t come with the rest of the premade because his character doesn’t fit the utility requirements.
I’m not saying all comps should be meta either, I’m saying all comps should be viable.

I don’t think this ever happens, if a pack needs stops, then you need stops. If a boss needs a decurse, then you need a decurse.
You should be able to play any spec and tag in any group, without the comp becoming unviable.

Yeah that’s personal preference, I like the idea of being able to log in, press a button and relax in my chair waiting for the matchmaking to find a group for me.
I included this in the post to show how all comps being viable opens up many door.

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You basically only create ‘unviable’ groups by stacking all the same classes.

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Well, let’s take an example. It’s a tyrannical incorporeal sanguine week, and you’re doing Uldaman.
Here’s the utility you will need:

  • “real” BL and BRez, both are pretty important in tyra
  • Enough CCs, stops and kicks to comfortably go through packs
  • Better have a decurse in case any curse cast goes through
  • Displacement ablities for sanguine and/or healing reduction
  • 2 incaps with 30s CD in the group to avoid any cast going through

You’re excluding a good portion of comps with these requirements, not only comps stacking classes.
I want to see a version of this game that cannot restrict viable compositions as it does right now.

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So you want everyone to have everything. That is the only way for every COMP to be viable.

Well, no thanks, I prefer some classes bringing something unique.

Well, I guess it could also be achieved by only having affixes that everyone can deal with.

But with your whole “Every comp should be viable, I don’t wanna tell my friend he can’t come because he doesn’t bring what we need” Does that also mean we should kill the holy trinity, should we be able to do it with 5 dps, or 4 healers and 1 dps?

Because let me tell you, from where I sit, I see no difference between telling a friend “Oh, sorry, we need X to deal with Y affix” or " Oh, sorry, we only have a healer spot left"

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Right now, your chances to be picked in a group is not determined by your role, but by your utility. Even for weeklies.
Tanks are the most flagrant example because VDH is sucking the life out of every other spec right now. All because the utility they bring is so much greater than any other tank, even paladins that are stacked with it too.

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Why would you want an automated matchmaking system?

I’d never use one for PvE as a healer or tank for anything beyond heroic difficulty dungeons.

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Right, so I will totally get invited as Aug then to a grp that only misses a tank… mmhmm …

But nice deflection.

You want every comp to be viable.
So do you want 5 dps to be viable as well? It is a comp.
How about 4 healers and a tank, should that be viable?

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I gave this reason a few replies behind:

But also, computers tend to make fast and unbiased decisions, an automated matchmaking could bring extremely fast queue time and would not care about the current meta. These kind of QoL improvement could convince other players to join the M+ player pool too.

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No, it wouldn’t.

The bottleneck for LFG groups are tanks & healers. It will be even worse with the automated system.

Just look at solo shuffle if you think it’ll be extremely fast.