At this rate DH tank spec will go extinct. Any respected tank (like Limit Maximum, or Shakib) already said that veng doesn’t bring anything better than other tanks. In legion we could actually do some nice big pulls in m+ and feel good. Now we just get murdered on higher keys. Our shiny kit to handle trash is worthless in raid settings and now also in m+ as groups prefer to bring dps with this abilities AND an actual tank that won’t get killed in single global cooldown. I checked US forum and someone posted some statistics for season 2. Veng is bottom tier only above druids (poor guardiands btw…). And honestly? Why bring VDH when Blood DK will keep himself alive better? Why bring VDH when Warrior will double his dmg with thunder clap while receive the least dmg of any tanks.
Metamorphosis is just plain bad for how long cd it is. From the math I’ve seen it grants ~20-25% damage reduction only to physical dmg and this reduction is getting worse and worse with ilvl. Funny enough demon spikes grants MUCH more reduction with ~1/12 cd of metamorphosis.
Fiery brands while being actually good for some isolated big hits is worthless in some scenarios as it is not a buff on us but a debuff on enemy. Seriously how do we fiery brand the enviroment?
Talent choices while looking nice and shiny, lots of nice traits from Legion, is actually only an illusion of choice since taking anything other than Spirit bomb and fracture is just not a choice from math point of view.
Veng DH is surely fun to play but at this point (community perception shifting from Legion’s m+) it’s dying rapidly. It had a strong class fantasy and niche of having very high tank dps when it was invented but BfA tank prunning just destroyed it. Semi-strong active mitigation with very low uptime, super weak big cds, kinda good dmg but worse than some other tanks (who can actually also take damage better than us), kit unusable in raids. And the worse of all is that VDH didn’t get ANY attention this expansion so far. No buffs, no nerfs (lol), just a new trait (which all classes/specs did get one) and no any sign from devs that they remember about poor DH tanks :<.
In my opinion, the reason why we see so few VDHs is havoc spec. Havoc is performing really well in m+ and also in raids. He is better DPS spec than VDH is tank spec. So many players choose havoc over vengeance.
Yes blood DK is MvP in m+. Why would anybody pick any other tank than blood DK? Battle res, mind control of skeletons, grip, good healing…
The other tanks have the same problem as vengeance. They are just not that good as blood DK. And since you need only one tank per m+ group. Well…
DH is also struggling a little bit in raids in ST encounters, because his soul generation and healing from Soul bomb is not that high than in multitarget encounters.
VDH needs just a viable “I am in trouble” button and talent tree with more relevant choices. I wouldnt say he is the bottom tier or the worst tank. But he is certainly not the best and needs a little love.
The biggest problem is the fact we’re a kite tank, that can very rarely kite lol.
Dungeons are way too small and rammed full of mobs. And the fact we get 0 AoE slows is actually quite laughable.
Blizz logic is obviously they get high manouvability, so they get lower defense and heals! But it just doesn’t work in BfA. We need demon spikes up 24/7 like guardians get iron fur, DK get bones, war gets ignore pain, brew gets stagger/dump stagger etc.
At the mo we get 3500 armour normally, 9000 armour with spikes, 1/2 - 1/3 of the fight (depends on length). Where as my DK sits at 10,000 armour 24/7. My guardians at 14,000-20,000 armour (2/3 stacks of iron fur). My warriors at 10,000 armour all the time etc.
And we all do about the same damage, just DK kills it on self healing above the rest. Warrior kills it on dps. If anything DH should do double the healing of DK. To make up for our serious lack of armour.
I think the Vengeance talent tree needs some rework. There are no viable alternatives to the typical Soul Bomb build, and Soul Cleave is kind of a pointless skill. I’m having way more fun and kicking more a** with my warrior tank at the moment.
The idea of surviving throught leeching enemy souls is good on paper but bad in practice, the spec currently relies on 2 talents exclusively (Fracture+Spirit Bomb) so yeah it definitely needs some changes.
The problem is that Vengeance is underrepresented and that’s why Bliz dodn’t give a sht about the spec while others got buffed.
Just reroll BDK like everyone else has :(. The spec is trash and everyone knows it. Like you said in legion it felt kinda fine, high damage, decent self healing. It brings literally nothing these days and its super trash in raids the toolkit does nothing outside of the grip (BDK is better).
VDH tool kit is actually the best TBH. AoE silence, mass grip (its not worse then bdk at all. Just a longer CD, which an azerite piece makes it shorter then BDK), mass stun/fear. With the ability to jump, shorter CD then brew.
It’s just the fact we’re the squishiest tank by a mile, self heals are decent but nothing special. And the damage is decent but nothing special.
Guadians get typhoon and vortex - VDH is better
warriors get AoE stun/ mass fear? - VDH is better
BDK get CR, grip, AoE slow - VDH is better
Brew get ring of piece - VDH is better
BDK isn’t event he best tank anymore. Top 8 keys are done by warriors now, then brew, then BDK. The top 20 keys is 15 warriors, 1 brew, 4 BDK.
Im 100% agree with the Author. VDH is being ignored by Blizzard from a long time ago..We need better tallents choice or a bit more defence..In world PvP we can be killed by every single dps...no dmg...no def...Same thing is at m+ runs, agro is bad, dmg same..even Warlock demon can last longer than usMobility is great but its not enough…At high m+ keys, trash kills us even when they spit… Come on Blizzard, give us a push…we really need it !!!
I just watched some of my old video of DH Veng from legion on YouTube. It is clear that I started to learn to live with this tank and I cannot believe how good it was at the end of legion.
There are no excuses to gut classes like they have. Old Legon Veng back please. The constant Meta with 4set and healing was amazing. I am actually sad to log back in to my tank now after watching it.
I would recommend forget about everything in the past as it was all great with almost all classes and specs otherwise you will just feel short changed in BFA.
so i main my guardian and tried out my veng dh today.
Why do all actually say that dh is above druid tank? Seriously veng dh sucks compared to my bear
less dmg, more dmg taken and even less hps, apart from silence, dh doesnt even have better utility
I agree, I play both and Druid is way ahead of DH. I get around 5K HPS with my druid at 370 and around 8K HPS with my DH at 385 (DK’s pull around 13-15k HPS at 385 and plate armour). Yet Druid has more armour by default and Ironfur, which is far more useful than 3k hps more.
So IMO DH is way behind all over tanks and the kiting is so rarely useful. IMO DH’s need the biggest buff by far. A Buff to it’s self healing is the obvious option, to DK level. DK’s still would have the benefit of Plate and all the other CD’s. Then just buff meta to be useful, and then change our fire brand to be all damage reduction.
I suspect this is intentional from Bliz to always have classes which are well below the curve in each expansion to get more people to purchase the 110 boost.
Because guardians are meant to be stationary. There literally a high armour punching bag. Try not kiting in a 15+ key and you’ll die near enough instant. Any melee mob will hit for 50-100k, so in a pack of 4 that’s up to 400k damage a second. With a healer doing 20k heals a second. And what do guardians have to slow mobs and kite? Absolutely nothing but typhoon and vortex on a huge CD.
Monk can ring of piece, and pull 3/4 packs and kite easily with torpedo. Warriors can stun and leap from packs. Blood DK can slow mobs 90% in death and decay, and use blood drinker for a range heal. Venge can pull multiple packs and leap away, use AoE seals to stun/damage mobs etc.
uhm, I can kite WAY better as druid than as a dh…
I do have vortex and typhoon, well mostly enough till the mobs are dead or at least some are dead or at the very least till i m back to full hp. apart from that i usually have at least 1 class with me that has a slow, so not really a big deal for me
ring of piece also have a big cd, so no difference to typhoon or vortex
not to piss you your parade but vengeance also have no slow? and the fear seal breaks instant on dmg, so doesnt help. Jumping away if there is not slow doesnt do anything for you either.
dks have a better slow und threat is bound to blood boil and dnd so thats their big advantage.
still i stand at my comment to say that bears are much better than dhs currently after playing both in +12 keys… maybe it changes higher, i dont know
Not a chance in hell are you kiting on a druid better then a DH lol. We can leap half the screen away, twice, with a short cool down. And we get much faster movement speed then any other class. Like I said bears can errr… vortex once a minute for a very small amount of free time. And typhoon to save them a second of getting hit?
I can leap half way across the screen for 5 seconds of no hits, then do that again. So can a monk and war (currently top 2 tanks). Combined with druids arewful utility, 0 stuns, 0 silences, 1 pretty lame self heal. It puts them in a bad spot later.
As well as aweful magic damage tanking. Warriors ignore pain works against magic, and can block magic, and spell reflect. Monks stagger magic damage (at a lower %), then drop the damage. DK get anti magic shield, and god like heals. Paladins get a whole arsenal of shields, bubbles, heals. Druid get ermmmm… absolutely no magic defense.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean to insult the class, but druids need a buff, and so do DH. Druids are very very strong mid level keys (10-14), but like DH 15+ they just don’t cut it. The top druid tanks 500th best key done. There’s an absolute ton of war/monk/pally/DK in there. And 1 guardian, and 1 DH.
Druids are built to be bulky and slow, like a classic tank. Hell against physical damage I’m pretty sure they’ve got the most armour in the game. But at a cost of the worst magic defense, and incredibly slow.
As well as aweful magic damage tanking. Warriors ignore pain works against magic, and can block magic, and spell reflect. Monks stagger magic damage (at a lower %), then drop the damage. DK get anti magic shield, and god like heals. Paladins get a whole arsenal of shields, bubbles, heals. Druid get ermmmm… absolutely no magic defense.
i was comparing bear to dh and not to others. DH has the same garbage magic defense as bear. Try to silence zul in KR for example… Silence as interupt, well can use typhoon for that as well, so no biggy.
Anyways I can kite pretty fine with typhoon and if i really need more kiting half across the universe, I can use typhoon, roar or even cat sprint.
And yes bear utility is terrible but I don’t see that DHs utility is much better
I know that guardian is terribad in high keys, but so are DHs
From personal experience by playing both classes on mid key (+12s) I feel much stronger and better on my bear than my on my dh.
All other tanks though, are on a completely different level and when I play them it feels like i play on easy now.
Druids are built to be bulky and slow, like a classic tank. Hell against physical damage I’m pretty sure they’ve got the most armour in the game. But at a cost of the worst magic defense, and incredibly slow.
yes they have the highest armor, which unfortunately doesn’t result in the highest mitigation even against pure physical mobs, so we don’t even have that. Warriors are like 5 billion times better at that
