Anyone else playing Vengeance feel like they have been slowly falling behind as the expansion have progressed, especially on fortified weeks? Playing it now feels like I am on the verge of dying whenever Meta isn’t up. Demon Spikes doesn’t do much, and Fiery Brand takes too long to spread on larger pulls. It’s gotten to a point where I am considering to not play Vengeance this patch, which is a shame because I think it’s a very fun tank. I’m just getting sick of running away when Meta or Fel Dev is on cooldown, and it’s not fun knowing that you’re giving your healer a heart attack every time you take damage.
I think a baseline armor buff and/or demon spikes buff is needed at this point.
VDH was the best tank initially not 'cause it could ever face-tank, but because it was the best at kiting when nobody could face tank. Now, however, not only can VDH not face tank anything even more since, as you said, scaling is falling behind, but even its damage is falling behind, while kiting is nowhere near as necessary on other classes. Tried tanking a couple of 15s on VDH and prot Pala yesterday, and it’s just way too much work for VDH when, as Pala, I can literally just sit there and deal giga damage and occasionally toss an off-heal to help my healer.
VDH definitely needed something in this patch to bring them up to Pala/Brew/Dudu level, but they’re still a really good tank with great utility and pretty high damage. It does take a bit more effort to make it work, but hey, that’s a reward in and of itself
Yeah I’m not saying it’s a bad tank. They just kinda stood in place since launch while other tanks has caught up or surpassed them. Prot paladin is a perfect example. At launch they were scary to play because low haste=SotR downtime, low mastery=less block/dmg reduction from consecration, and just general scaling. But during previous season we have seen a rise in prot paladin representation because they hit that breaking point where you can safely facetank, on top of doing very good damage and all the great utility paladin has for the group.
If you can’t facetank 15s, you’re pulling way bigger than you need to comfortably time them. And if you choose to pull bigger than you need, it’s on you if you can’t facetank.
I think you’re missing the point a bit. It’s not that VDH is unplayable or not capable of doing content. All tanks can do +28-29 keys atm. I’m just comparing tanks based on my own experience from SL launch up until now, and something feels a bit off with Vengeance sturdiness. I’m used to my health spiking up and down since BDK is my main, but VDH is just on another level.
They are just a bit too squishy outside of Meta and it seems to have gotten slightly worse every season.
My comment was more to the shammy who compared tanking 15s on VDH and another tank and said VDH was ‘way too much work’. I’ve tanked a few 15 - 17s on my DH lately to help other people get vault keys done, and unless you’re having to carry a group that’s seriously undergeared and/or lacking in competence, it’s just a bit of easy fun. For me, it’s just messing around on my DH.
The other thing that surprises me, though, is that people are surprised when DH is the first tank that has to kite as keys get higher. That’s the way it’s designed, and people who don’t enjoy that style of tanking shouldn’t play it. It isn’t a problem that needs to be fixed. The only use spikes has in high keys is to mitigate melee attacks from bosses. In high keys, and the big trash pulls that are needed to time them, it absolutely is a case of jump in with meta up, use all your damage abilities, then get out in the last second before meta drops off. Then dance around the edge of the pack, putting sigils down, elysian decree every 28 seconds, and jumping in to fel dev every time it comes off CD.
If you don’t enjoy that style of play, then imo, VDH isn’t the right tank for you.
Yeah I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with my DH because of it. I enjoy the rotation and class fantasy a lot, and it’s one of the few classes I think it’s fun to hop in and dps if someone needs it. VDH is enjoyable up until the point where you can no longer actually tank when Meta is down and it shifts into dpsing for a few seconds and then running.
I like tanks that can take the punishment (actually tank damage) and only need to run in very specific situations, like resetting necrotic stacks. Normally as expansion progresses and power creep kicks in you tend to get like 1-2 keystone levels for “free” before running into problems that force you to change your playstyle. But like I said it feels like VDH didn’t benefit as much as other tanks from launch until now.
My DH is 243 atm with 24% versa and even on keys as low as 15, on fortified weeks it just gets completely trucked outside of Meta unless I do small pulls. I’m not expecting to pull 4 packs and just use demon spikes, but getting last resort procs with spikes + fiery brand on 2-3 targets is just dumb. One thing is when you’re pushing the limits of your spec, but it shouldn’t happen on content that you are overgearing. It’s not an issue with the 5 other tanks. VDH isn’t even the highest dps tank, which used to be an argument for why it’s squishy and have to kite more.
Then again, I’m too stubborn (or stupid?) to stop playing it, even if it’s an alt. Let the heart attacks commence!
Hmm… I’ve played with VDH tanks who have completely wiped the floor with the dps in 15s. The highest I saw was just shy of 9k overall in Mists, but that’s playing spirit bomb build with the kyrian legendary, which I personally don’t like. I’ve done over 7k with fiery brand build.
This is probably a big part of your problem, since haste is VDH’s most valuable stat, not versa, and I assume that much versa comes with relatively lower haste. What haste does for you is reduces the GCD, meaning you fracture more often, generating more souls and doing more self healing (and also more damage). Although mitigation is obviously important, as it is for all tanks, a major feature of VDH is taking damage and then healing it back up.
The other thing that might be happening (but I don’t know because I can’t see your VDH talents) is that you’re playing spirit bomb and your health is dropping low before you bomb. Spirit bomb build is known for being spiky (which is the main reason I don’t like it), but in combination with not enough haste, you might be getting to the point where your health drops so low just before you bomb that a couple more hits can kill you.
But as you said, in content that you overgear, that shouldn’t be happening, and you shouldn’t be dying (or proccing cheat death) regardless of build. It isn’t a problem I have, so I would put it down to (probably) not having enough haste.
My haste is 17% which is a bit on the low end. I usually play standard Fiery Brand build. I tried Spirit Bomb with Kyrian legendary which does indeed provide absurd dps, but that was because you could reach 50-60% versatility. When 9.2 hit Blizzard nerfed it and capped the stacks at 20% versa.
Despite it’s flaws it’s still so satisfying to Fel Dev or Eye Beam into a big pack of mobs. Even if the spec frustrates me it’s so hard to just drop it.
Edit: Also, appreciate the discussion so far without resorting to flaming. Highly unusual forum behavior
Yet another problem Blizzard has created for themselves with the invention of M+. Due to the scaling nature of the content it is always going to run into this issue of not being able to actually “tank” incoming damage depending on class. At which point the game becomes entirely about kiting and you might say you are playing a DPS with low damage and high threat.
Given that this is the basic premise that Vengeance DH seems to be built upon (relying on mobility/kiting instead of mitigation) the only way forward from here would be to give them more damage.
Which is kind of crappy if you wanted to “tank” in the traditional sense; you basically have to look at another class.
Yeah I decided to just keep it as a casual alt for weekly 15 and maybe doing some keys as Havoc. Current design has some downsides for what I am looking for in a tank. DK, Druid and perhaps Paladin will have to cover my facetanking needs for now.
