Yep, the stress all stems from the fact that it downgrades, not even the timer.
I find m+ fun, but there is some stress to running a high level dungeon, and it’s not because it’s difficult.
When you don’t finish in time you are already punished by not upgrading the key, but right now you get kicked in the balls, you get double punished.
Well, the timer isn’t helping exactly, but yes.
It’s also a significant source of the toxicity in there. I tried to express this some time ago when people were talking about leavers and toxic M+ players and how hard it was to join groups and a myriad of other things all stemming from the fact that a group creator is simply scared to death of losing his key.
This whole system makes you angry and stressed and stressed people are not kind.
It would remove a huge contributor to rage and toxicity in m+ no doubt about that.
Some people say “But but, exploits”
I fail to see where it can be exploited, other than shuffling for your favorite dungeon, which would not be game breaking in any way, shape or form.
So it’s a Yes from me as well
They’re just playing devil’s advocate, but the problem is that they miss the bigger picture of what’s the actual problem here.
By the way if the problem is exploits, no system is immune to them.
And kicking players who do not perform without worrying about a downgrade, IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. Those people shouldn’t be doing that level of key anyway, and the fact that they are effectively getting carried also translated to inaccurate scores, you know when you find a 2k player who plays terribly? This is part of the reason.
Or having a system like torghast where you do the key once and you can do that level from now on if you so choose, whether the key is randomized or not, is NOT AN EXPLOIT.
Let’s say you are the leader of the group providing the key, you invited someone who seemed good at first but then performed terribly, as a leader you have to think, do i kick this guy just out of principle, but then i will lose some damage, because even though they are bad they are still providing a little bit of something, or do i just push through, and put on blacklist?
Usually the better option is the second. But you are definitely not very happy about having this person in your group.
So playing devil’s advocate here is really stupid, because their argument has no validity at all.
The way I see it:
Removal of downgrade = Good short term workaround to make people a little bit happier
Rework of M+ completely to enable players choose their own difficulties and dungeons without restrictions = Final solution Blizzard should strive for.
Here’s me going a bit further, but I’d be happy with just removing the downgrading don’t get me wrong - but this is what I would do:
There are no keys
Dungeons are unlocked instead. Any given dungeon exists on a variety of difficulties. At first you can see only normal (or +1 if we’re being technical) but more can be unlocked. All keystone levels are unlocked for all dungeons at once.
The timer never downgrades
You run it, you get a timer. +3, +2, +1.
They work the same as today, except of course they unlock the difficulties of your completed timer plus the difficulty you ran in the first place.
There is no way for the system to “de-unlock” a difficulty level other than a new season, effectively removing the -1 timer.
Full reward for however long it takes
Like today, even if it takes 3 hours to clear the dungeon, you still get full loot. You get +0 though - no new unlocks.
Although I might reconsider that. Perhaps +1 should simply be the default with no further timer.
Some class changes
One of the things that annoy me a bit about modern WoW is how resource systems have been drained out of our classes. This often leaves you with super annoying decision points like whether I should use my CD because I’m afraid the tank might not pull for a bit of the healer needs to drink and then I can’t hit stuff and get my CD reduction because frost, etc. etc. and this problem is hugely compounded by the keystone timer system, hence why I mention it here.
I think the game should allow certain CD’s to be lowered by drinking, so if I drink I can more quickly get combustion back, etc. Dungeons should be about beating mobs first and foremost - though of course everyone popping their CD’s at the end of a mob means they’d have to drink for like 30 seconds to get it back, so there’s still a decision point somewhat.
Whatever it takes, we’ve got to get this stress out of M+.
No.
The whole point of keys are to time them.
If you cant time it, get better, and then time it.
How getting better or practice if cant repeat the failed difficulty?
If you time it you get better key. There is no reason to get worse key if you dont.
We would not have been having this topic if that was not creating too much inter-player strife.
Being able to rise to the occasion in order to progress is a staple of video games. Being set back for not rising to the occasion is a lot more niche and better suited for single player games where one can only blame themselves for failure.
You can be as good as one can get and still be set back due to the circumstances of another. Humans love nothing more than shifting the blame to others.
the most obvious exploit would be to buy 1 boost on week 1 and then have +16 or higher key for rest of season.
it worked like this briefly at start of one of SL season and people instantly abused it.
blizzard hotfixed it so its clear they wont get back to that model
The forums are more often than not a loud minority.
Keys as is are widely popular, clearly a system that already works.
If it isnt broken, dont fix it.
Removing depletion from keys is a complete rewamp of gameplay.
It will greatly inflate both ratings and gearscore.
I can already imagine having to run the same key over and over, just to eventually time it, because thats what people are gonna do. Weekly 20s would be a meme because you cant even deplete it. To me this just looks like people wanting free handouts from blizzard because they cant git good.
I am however for a system, where keys marked as ‘‘completion’’ are to actually be completed. With punishment for players that leave early. Fixing the issue of some humans wasting other peoples time with little to no consequence.
i still cant understand why after so many years of m+ people just cannot accept their own level of skills and do keys on their own level instead hoping for free carry and then getting crazy when others refuse to carry them .
there is absolutely no shame and nothing wrong with admiting that their level is like +10 or +13 or +16 and thats where their skill celling is.
instead have fun and do difficulty they are comfortable with they overreach and then complain when stuff goes horribly
i will always compare it to gym - you dont go there look at people who bench press 120 kg and then instantly attempt it because "its cool / its what cool kids do " - if you never pressed then you press 20 or 30 kg and learn . same shoudl be with m+
but some people think they should be doing +20 just because max rewards are there. they waste hundreds of hours of super frustrating time instead just have fun time in like +12 that is their skill level
I pay the sub too so I demand 421 items same as everyone else
As long you get no loot and no rating in a failed key I guess I see no problem with that.
Oh please, we have heard this every since vanilla ended, then after TBC ended and when WotLK ended and so forth.
To go more on-topic;
I don’t see anything in this proposal. If anything, griefing could increase…it just turns from ‘the keyholder is the one who suffers’ to ‘anyone joining a group of 2 or more suffers’.
That would still lead to people being trapped in meme groups if they are not careful.
Even now, people can still complete a 20 key in 2 hours of wipes if they want to and are able.
To me if people can wipe for days into a heroic raid boss without having to redo the normal version every day, the same can be done for M+
We got this system on the tournament realm and it isn’t particular fun to stop and retry after every big mistake, untill you got your perfect 30 minutes.
How does 3 tries per hour allowed sound? (unless you clear it)
That still means you will try unlimited.