We have to talk about M+'s inherently toxic design

Community General Discussion
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I have the beta but cannot post on the “in-development” section, so I post it here.

Dragonflight releases in less than 2 months. There has been no beta testing for M+ (as of now, 3rd of October) yet. There were some changes done to the Mythic Keystone system (necrotic & inspiring being removed), but the fundamental flaw of the system still has not been addressed - keystone depletion, and how it creates a toxic environment, filled with trolls & elitists.

Introduction
Mythic Plus has been added in Legion. Initially it was based on Diablo 3’s Greater Rift system, with a couple of changes.
The most important ones are as following:

  • You can only run your current key level - in Diablo you can run any Greater Rift Level between 1 and the highest one you’ve completed (+1 for push)
  • Not timing the key resulted in the key being “bricked” - at the beginning in Legion the key would go grey and you would have to redo it first before attempting to push

The part about key going bad and having to be redone was quickly changed, as it was really bad from a user experience perspective - you had to effectively do the dungeon two more times if you depleted it once. The new depletion mechanism lowers the key level by one if you happen not to time it / reset before completion. Depletion has worked in that way ever since.

The problem
After more than 4 years of playing keys on various levels, classes, specializations, roles I have come to realize one simple thing.
The current M+ depletion system punishes one person only - the person who brings the key.
This creates a very toxic environment, for both

  • people joining someone else’s keys
  • people wanting to push their own keys

Keyholder Perspective
Trying to play your own key with a pug is not worth it at the moment. Your key can get depleted by:

  • bad play from your side (deserved to get a deplete)
  • bad group performance overall (deserved to get a deplete)
  • you DC/leave/afk (deserved to get a deplete)
  • bad play from someone else’s side
  • a troll leaving the key for no reason
  • someone DC/leaves/afk
    Half of the reasons why the key depletes are out of your reach.

Now, a question - what happens when the key depletes (and why it is a problem)?
Only your key gets depleted. There are 0 consequences for other people (besides <40 minutes of gameplay for nothing). What is more, you lose twice - you lose your current key level, and your previous run (which pushed it) is basically invalidated. There are also more things, which can be categorized as punishment for depleting a key - for example the key ending up on a dead level like 14, 19 - right before vault/achievement breakpoint.

A combination of those two factors (keyholder being the only person punished for reasons often out of his reach) creates a system, which promotes toxicity and elitism in the M+ community.

Pugger Perspective
Keyholders come to understand the thing above rather quickly (usually after the first time this happens). The system is against them, so they naturally try to minimize the odds of depleting the key. This includes:

  • requesting experience/high IO
  • taking only meta-specs

This creates a situation, where lower-IO characters/off-meta specs can spend hours trying to play a single key. I have spent hours getting declined for keys 3-5 levels below my top key for that dungeon, only because I played off-meta spec or had my score dragged down by a completely different dungeon.

I am no saint - I also am picky about people - this is exactly the reason why. I would love to give lower-io/off-meta players a chance, but in the end I get absolutely no benefit for it and risk getting punished instead:

  • Best-case scenario - we time the key and I get 65 extra valor
  • Worst-case scenario - I took the risk, gave others a chance and I get punished for it by losing my key and “invalidating” run that pushed it in the first place

Risk-benefit calculation is just not adding up at the moment - even if you wanted to.

Summary of the problem
Keyholder is the only person punished for depleting the key, keyholder can be trolled very easily with no consequences. This creates a toxic&elitist environment, where they keyholder is being very picky about his party, which then worsens the experience of newer/off-meta players.

Proposed solution
Remove key depletion altogether. Diablo 3’s GR served as a blueprint for the system, but you failed to understand why GR was so fun - there were no consequences for depleting the rift (except rift key being gone, but you can farm them very easily, quickly and in big quantities to the point where it does not matter). If you fail, you go agane. In M+, if you deplete, you don’t go agane. Your party breaks, your key is depleted and your previous run is invalidated.
What is more, if someone wants a lower key, they already have (right now, on retail) the NPC in town which lowers it.

Outro
I have made a similar post in the past on a different character, but I got lynched by the people when I proposed punishments for leavers with option to vote surrender the key (including a person who left a key in +5-10 range, because a prot paladin didn’t know how does aura mastery for holy work, if you know you know). I also acknowledged in that post that no punishment would be a better solution.

At that point I thought I was in the wrong, but then OneAzeroth posted the video - he talks about the issue and shows a clip of a shaman who left for 0 reason and caused virtually timed key to deplete right before the last boss. If you don’t know OneAzeroth, he keeps a database of M+ runs in multiple seasons, records their results and videos of the run. A lot of those keys are deplete, because someone leaves, as they know there will be no consequences for them (which would be fine, if the keyholder wasn’t screwed).

Blizzard, please - fix M+.

inb4 find a pre-made

I have a party, but the tank only plays tanks and no other role. What is more, with my schedule I can only pug, as every week I am available at different hours - sometimes mornings, sometimes afternoons, sometimes nights. If you came here to say this, just leave, as this problem clearly does not affect you.

12 Likes
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Hello.I understand all that but what will happen if key depletion is off the table?

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An addition to this: there is no “safe environment” for new players or people wanting to get into doing keys, to actually learn properly. They learn eventually yes, but the inital first few keys will be a rough rocky road.

As much as I want to go through the mechanics and strats for each boss, in case someone is new or in-experienced. The timer sits in the corner going “GO GO GO TICK TOCK KEEP GOING CHAIN PULL LETS GO”

Doing heroics shows practically nothing of the mechanics as everything dies way too fast, Mythic 0 does not show enough as enemies and bosses dies way to fast to show enough mechanics or pull off damage that shows “this is a dangerous spell, this should be interrupted” etc

If I am running a “boot camp” session with friends or guildies that are new to M+, I usually have to be prepared to “sacrifice” my key to let em learn in peace and get the hang of it all

In SL there has been a absurd amount of DPS coming in but barely any tanks or healers coming in, due to how much they need to know before going for keys. Like learning the routes, % values on trash mobs, what to dispell and what can slide by, big impactful group wide damage, what to interrupt, what trash mobs are dangerous and so on

I think a good TLDR as an addition would be: there is no safe place for letting people get into the system or learn the meta, as there is simply no time to go through things in detail during a key run. You have to rely on that people does their homework with videos etc BEFORE going at it

6 Likes
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I think if you add reward of most gears to the NORMALS dungeon, then players will be pleasance, do not need to go into any sort of mythics dungeon. That way you can do the normals dungeon for boostup, currence there are not many players doing the normals dungeon THIS IS A PROBLEM AS THERE IS THE NEW PLAYERS GO

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What a huge pointless wall of text which can be tldr im not good enough for certain difficulty that’s why my keys deplete and i belive i beling there even if i dont.

Stop failing mechanics , dont invite random stranger only guildies , find a guild where people Play on your level and all your problems dissapears.

This is mmo game. Stop playing it as single player game

1 Like
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Overall, i think it’s very reasonable for keys to deplete. I hope they keep it that way.

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This is not a single player game.

If someone is an awesome healer, ask them how they are, talk to them, ask if you can add them for next time. Then next time you do a key invite that healer.

It’s not difficult to make a pool of people you can draw from.

A) Guild
B) Close friends
C) Friends lists

The whole thing is solved by simply making friends with people.

A non depleting key makes it too easy to cheese gear and removes all of the incentives to find a group of like minded similar skill level people.

In my opinion the option to pug should be removed entirely all I have ever heard about it is bad things and people moaning. Makes the game toxic.

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As many have pointed out already, this “toxicity” can be easily solved by simple socialization. But demanding Blizz to hand hold you is ofc “less work”. And socializing in an MMO game? How dare I suggest such blasphemy :rofl:.

Also call me an elitist or whatever. But m+ is the endgame content, meaning you need to use your skill(including social skills) to overcome it. If you cant = then m+ is not for you. Like in FFXIV = not everyone will be able to do savage and ultimate stuffs, same with m+. Its not a leveling quest or dungeon where Blizzard needs to make sure that absolutely every drunk monkey can solo it while watching netflix on 2nd monitor…

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So don’t pug if you don’t want to put your keys up to random peoples performance.

So make the game unplayable for anyone that doesn’t schedule their playtime? Lmao, worst suggestion I’ve read.

I pugged up to +21 last season and I’ve pugged up to +20 this season and I never encounter the amount of toxicity people claim exists in keys, so they must be doing something to be causing it themselves given how rare it is for me to encounter it.

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And then you join the failtrains, chillstreak, calmer keystones, zen keystones, etc discords and every character of the OP’s post does poof.

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I was kinda exaggerating to be honest but when all you hear is the negative it taints your opinion of it.

Like the boyfriend/girlfriend the family only hears negative things about taints their opinion.

I plugged once back in wrath, makes me shudder thinking about it.

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You can do up to 20s just pressing W pretty much. The problem comes when you die because people have no idea what to do on trash or on a boss. I have seen some of the wonkiest routes and we still do dungeons +2.

Like this key:

We had over 60% when we got to first boss.

We just pressed W.

Just winging the route on the fly.

1 Like
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Its bad, but there”s an easy fix for this.

Play with friends

U dont have friends, ok, i u understand!

U have the following options:

Add people that played well and u had good conection

Put in the effort to find a decent guild or
Comunity

U have ways to avoid pug content, u just need some effort and in the long term u will be fine.

Final 2 solutions:

If blizzard doesnt come with a better system- stop taking it so seriously if u dont try what i wrote above.

Quit mythic + or the game altogheter.

Im not ranting, nor trolling you, but u clhave some options beside waiting for a better system( wich may or not come from blizz)

Gluck

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Some dungeons in previous season, like Plaguefall, it got a bit specific on routes to make it “optimal”, was even key runs when you pulled the red slimes to the first boss in PF and stand inside it to get the damage buff going.

Or in Season 1 with the Prideful affix, was the wierdest routes with twists and turns I have ever done to maximise the buff from it, like in DoS you cleared around half the ring and THEN go for Hakkar

Most dungeons in Season 4 is definitely just W :smiley:

And yes its very much an issue that people does not know what to do on bosses or what to watch out for on trash mobs. I dunno how many times I had to panic grab the briefcases on the Postmaster boss in Tazavesh as a tank cause the DPS just blindly ignores it

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Eh, it only happened in a few groups I had there. I didn’t even look at the covenants of those I invited in the +20 plaguefall I did to get the teleport, we had no necrolord at all. Didn’t do any fancy routes either, just W pretty much. Only thing I made sure to get was a bloodlust class, didn’t care about spec.

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When your characters’ progression is dependent on others, there is no solution to toxicity under those circumstances.

Players need to be given the option to progress their characters in a meaningful way by playing solo.

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Being keyholder is like drawing the shortest straw.

Play DPS with your tank pal. When they aren’t available play tank or healer so you don’t have to use your own key, thus no depletes.

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The problem I have with depletion is that it’s disproportionately punishing, considering the keyholder has very little control over how the run goes.

Compare this to raiding, where if you wipe on a boss, you can be pulling that some boss within a minute of wiping. If you lose an arena, all you lose is a couple minutes and one arena worth of rating. But if you deplete a key, not only do you lose the hours it took to push the key, but you now also have to spend extra hours to get the key back to where it was.

Imagine if each time you wipe on a raid boss mean you now had to rekill the previous boss just to get another pull on the boss you’re progressing. And god forbid you wipe on the previous boss, because that would have you rekilling the boss before that one. And even that still wouldn’t be proportionate to the amount of time you lose by depleting your key. Try having to rekill the entire raid from the first boss each time you wipe on any boss for any reason. Then maybe you start getting close to M+ amounts of time loss.

Essentially, depleting a key is worth hours of the keyholder’s time. That’s not nearly the case in any other type of content in this game, or even any other game I know of.

3 Likes
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Yes, there is. There are communities for running chilled keys in a friendly environment. M+ is a player organised activity, so it makes sense that M+ ‘teaching’ is a player organised thing as well.

The keyholder has ALL the control. They get to pick who they invite to their key.

1 Like