We need a statement on raiding in P4 and onwards

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
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Right now stepping up from 10man to 20man has destroyed alot of guild, and i fear a future where 40man would destroy most of the remaining communities on our server.

As a guild master and someone who is fighting the roster boss every week, I’m eager to know from the Classic WoW team if we’re supposed to plan for 20mans or 40mans going forward.

They’ve previously stated that Molten Core will be 20man, and with that stated that they might look into tuning other raids if needed (They didn’t originally plan for this though). Right now we’re at a point where we need to know in regards to guild management - if we should nurture out 20man team or if we should start mass recruiting to fill spots

Thank you for listening. Hugs, Hacco

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‘Thank you for listening’

You made me giggle there :rofl:

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Bro, you only saying this because they started with 10man. If they started with 20man raids you’d be saying the same thing that how much better 20man is than 40

Also you know 40man is the norm in vanilla yet you and many others still wanted to play. Be lucky raids are 20man, should be 40man

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Well, starting of with 10 the first 4 months, then going to 20 and later 40 didnt help Blizzards cause at all (specially when they didnt give a clear statement about 60 raids until very late).
People are expected to double their roster as the game is dying, or run 40-man guilds with 10 man content for half a year …

If it was 40-man from start atleast people would have a chance to prepare for it and keep players busy, but then again I doubt SoD would have had half its population at launch if that was the case.

This post sums it up pretty good (long as a book however): 20-man raids as standard going forward

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Classic had x2 x3 the population of SoD despite raids being 40 man.

The real issue is that there are too many guilds because everyone wants to be GM/Officer.

I see in WG that there are 3 guild that speaks my native language spamming LFG to recruit (the game in my country is not popular at all), if those people would actually work together they would have already a 40 man roster.

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Yes. 20 man is better than 40 cause its possible to organize. Where 10 men are even better.

We are aware that in vanilla and in classis 40 is a thing. Thats why we are not playing classic

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I don’t mind if raids are going to be 40man, but as a GM I just want some clarity on wether or not we should prepare for it. They’ve previously stated that Molten Core will be 20man, and that they might look into tuning the other raids aswell.

I just want to know if we’re good to go or if we should start expanding the guild / merge with other guilds

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Becuase Classic was annonced as 40-man and had a population that build up over time back in 2005-2009, in a setting that worked with the players at that time. I doubt introducing 80-man prior to Naxx would have worked very good in Classic, especially as most guilds were disbanding already. Thats the difference.

Just becuase 40 man worked in Classic doesnt mean it will work on any other version, especially if the target audiance is unclear (which was a problem with SoD, who was it made for?). Just look at how high and low Blizzard shots in an attempt to hit everybody, and miss them all instead.

There’s also a difference between just having a guild to clear with, and having X amount of people interested in doing it the same was as one self.
When the baseline is “I jUst WanT mY ShiNeys”, then even 500 man isnt a problem as people swallow whatever crap u throw at them as long as they get a new item. Thats not the case for people that want it done in specific days, times (during day), ways and (clear) times with difference in approach, atmosphere and similar.

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You could be right if it was actually the case., but when in the span of 5 mins I see the same 4 guilds spamming in LFG “we raid wend/sund (why people have this fetish of playing on Sunday?….stay with family/friends) at 20 st”

If those 4 guilds would set aside their ego they would not event have to spam in LFG.

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He said classic, not original vanilla
Vanilla had very low pop in each server compared to classic/sod
What it did not have is the expectation that everybody should raid, let alone clear every lockout
I played vanilla and never raided then. And it was the same for a lot of people. Even in 2006, you saw someone in full raid gear, it was an achievement

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This is a fair point. If we knew 40 men were coming, people could start considering mergers sooner and be prepared for p4.

If we get hit with sudden 40 man raids chances are a lot of chaos would erupt, guilds would die and the player base shrink.

Saying we all agreed to 40 man by default doesn’t hold water, we didn’t know anything before we started. And even so, things changed, drastically I might add.

That said I would love 40 man raids, but it will be a pain. Nevertheless, if it’s going to be 40 it needs to be announced as soon as possible so we can start adapting!

As an alternative I’d say the good old 25 man raid can work too imo. It’s a reasonable number of people. I actually dislike 20 man, I feel it’s kind of lacking the scale of classic. Not that 25 is so much bigger but it’s something manageable. Maybe it’s just ST, which simply doesn’t feel like a raid instance

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I know m8, I just stated the shape of Classic through Vanilla is a long established structure. Hence both how popular it was and the knowing what to expect from it, that drawed the right audiances for it with the right/in line expectations.

SoD on the other hand lacked both establishment and a clear vision, to the point the developers couldnt get clear answeres and changed “main” sized content 3 times …

Obviously 40 man works better with the coonditions and expectations of its “home” environment.

If the clear on a specific day was the only thing both wanted; Yes.

However if they are clearing it in different ways (focus on loot, boss parses, speed, effectivness, relaxing), if one guild required specific professions/consumbles/preperations/gear, approaches to signups/bench/roster, skillcapp, loot-system, tactics, if one is aimed more towards social than performance standards, community, activities outside of raids, if some people want a specific type of setting, then its something else and a shared time wont cut it or keep people staying/returning.

The better these things match, the bigger are the chances of returning players, agreement and enjoyment.

If a “clear” at a specific time was the only thing that mattered, Blizzard could just implement LFR and have 20 individuals sharing the same common goal (loot at any cost) just go ham together. But guilds and raids are a much more complexed thing for many than just that.

Hence why “wE aRe SemIhArdCorE” doesnt say anything to anybody.

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I keep seeing this parroted all over the place, why do so many of you think that the reason for why they aren’t merging are because of their ego’s?

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My guess is becuase that’s how they view the game - where the people around you are tools for a clear to get a item of a specific BiS lists. With that approach, and acually not carrying about anything else than a clear no matter how it looks like in the end, it would seem (from their perspective) that the only thing needed is additional bodys.
Add the fact that they want to watch Netflix on the other screen and have little to no interaction with the others, and it becomes pretty clear why they would expect it to be efficient to just merge bodies until you get 20 and start blasting.

My guild (as an opposite) have acually pushed forward raids to other days when we feel the raid isnt atleast close to what we want it to be. Nobody cares about a clear just for the clear, and loot isnt their endgame (most people have most things anyway).

Thats why some people simply dont get the point of enchants, pre-raid BiS or world-buffs (from a group perspective rather than them just pushing their own parses). Becuase the only thing they want is a clear, in any shape way or form, and that can be easily achived without any of it. WhEn WiLl mY ShiNey DroP, damn rng!

I’ll speak for myself only, but know others around share the same view, when I say that if logging in 1 time every 7 days to drag yourself through an (too) easy raid, getting items that in the end arent even tried to be utilized, wouldnt keep my playing for long. There’s single player games I could play at my own pace if I just wanted to gear a character up.

But to each their own. If Blizzard acually had a plan with SoD they could have tweaked the gameplay and approach to better fit whoever they wanted to play it. But when they try to make everybody happy, to get more subs, they end up losing everybody.
With 3-4 versions of WoW out, one would think they could adjust them more for whatever target audiance they want to catch.

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Because if I see the same people doing the same thing for weeks there is only 2 outcomes.

They are unwilling of letting go of their “privileges” or simply dumb.

But I do like to think that it’s just the first especially when most people is 30+ with a stable jobs.

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Or more likely people are dropping of by the day, meaning that even if you do recruit people for the weeks reset, you still need to fill spots the week after.
Unless a guild has 10 people in backup (which isnt likely for most with 20 man content), the guilds even after merges need to keep on filling. Or keep on over-recruiting, which is what most guilds that keep on playing do (and always have done).

Getting 20+/- people and hoping none will drop off with Cata, summer and a rather boring phase, is like signing a death warrent.

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If a fresh recruit stop showing after just One reset maybe the issue in not in Cata but in the guild environment.

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My opinion might be unpopular here, but there are few things I would like to point out.

  • Not everyone enjoys clearing raids in a guild setup/environment.
  • Having 10-40 men raids would not increase the recruitment success rate of any guild.
  • Not everyone takes raiding as a job, clearing all the raid saves weekly.
  • Nowadays (with few exceptions) there are no perks in joining a guild.

With that being said, I personally prefer to lead my own raids in the form of PUG, I see no point in being forced to pick a specific day and hour to clear the raid and plan my life around it, maybe I got something to do in the weekend when the guild is planning to clear the raid. Because of the way community turned nowadays I find all the loot systems in a guild to be corrupt and favor the guild masters and their friends, giving them priority over items, special privileges and me having to put more effort into carrying casual players that are not putting any effort into preparation.

I find that even if they would make raids 10 men, it would still be hard for a guild to find members for the above mentioned reasons as well as other reasons I might have not mentioned, so yes, 40 men raids would be hard to plan in a guild setup but not due to lack of players, but rather to the lack of interest to clear the raids in a guild setup by what I consider to be the majority.

In my experience in PUGs you also have LESS drama than in a guild setup, you straight-up announce that you might HR one item each run and you have more room for diversity when it comes to raid composition as opposed to being forced into accepting whatever the guild got available in that said week.

So for ending, I believe the reason why we won’t get any information or help to plan ahead is because guilds are not that popular anymore nowadays and would make little to no difference if the raids are 20 men or 40 men when it comes to guild recruitment.

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Or it’s a mentality created both by Blizzard making anybody able to faceroll 10 man content and people not wanting to commit to anything.

When suddenly one “has” to sign up regulary, show up regulary, follow given tasks and rules, fall in line in terms of lootsystem, then all of a sudden “it’s not fun”.

Hence why a type of people prefer the mass-guilds (glorified PUGs) with 6-10 sign ups where nobody is “missed” if they dont show up (and GDKPs before them). Zero commitment, rarely any demands more than “bring gold”.
Players join in and leave as soon as something isn’t done their way or they feel like it, and nobody cares because another anonymous stranger takes their spot.

After the 10 man phases, where these people could pick up anybody (along with a few friends at best) and just snooze their way through content (with very little competition on loot), they were now forced into bigger communities in order to achive the same thing. Entitled as they are, unless they get everything they want in the way they want, its “not a good fit”.

People like this join a guild over a reset or two but quickly realize that its not fun to walk the line as a solo hero.

Gaming, modern WoW.

I agree with much of your post from that perspective, apart from this ^

I can offer any new recruit 3 guranteed Tokens + whatever blue/epics drop (as we have them all, but also to show good faith to new recruits - which is appreciated). This all for less than 25 min of their week, and for a “Sign” if they can play or “Absence” if they cant.

That creates another problem with this type of mentality.
Unless this person is very interested in speedruns, he now founds himself with loot that would take him weeks or months (or thousands of gold) to get in a PUG or GDKP. All of a sudden the purpose with raiding for him is gone, so why show up to do a favour for “unknown” people without any gain?
Game becomes boring, raiding becomes meaningless so they quit or roll something else - which leaves the guild again without a spot.

Obviously this isnt the case with people that are in it for the “right” reasons, but as population sinks and the player demand in raids is bigger, its harder to recruit the correct type (unless you are Top 3 and have a recruitment queue).

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guys we got a statement on p4 and onwards… we got a statement that they’re planning to make a statement.

oh happy day.

sayonara. :v:

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