Are the people who dont like this change also crying out that they dont get vault rewards from doing mythic+0?
It’s basically the same concept?
You’re still able to get gear just not vault rewards.
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If all you do is non-rated PvP, then you can get the default item level Conquest gear. It’ll take a while, but you can get it. Otherwise you’ll rely on the Honor gear and its upgrades.
If you do Rated PvP, then the Conquest gear will be as good as your rating is. If you’re a Gladiator-rated player, then your Conquest gear will be equivalent to Mythic raid gear, roughly speaking.
I think it’s an okay design, all-around. Some pros and cons of course, but it’ll do, I think.
Ah, so one can still get Conquest gear from non-rated PvP in SL? Didn’t know that, thought it was only obtainable from rated. Then this change is even less of an issue, probably then emphasizes on what I said - vault gear could be better quality as it will be obtainable only through rated.
Anyway I think anyone who is serious into pvp and that’s most of the crowd that goes “Let us have PvP gear be best for pvp and come from pvp” plays rated. And the casual pvpers who never step into rated shouldn’t be concerned with it because they obviously don’t care much about competing, but just having random fun in BGs.
Which is nothing bad of course, but has its weak points in regard of the gear one can get.
Vault gear will be of the quality that reflects your performance. You do Mythic raiding? You get Mythic gear. You got 2400 rating in Arena? You get Mythic-quality Conquest gear.
Hm, isn’t conquest gear lower ilvl than mythic raiding? Max 219 for PvP and max 22something for PvE? I might be wrong though.
Both are 226 if I recall correct. But Mythic raiding has access to 233 from the last two bosses, so that’s an exception. But otherwise it’s the same.
(I haven’t looked it up, so I’m going with my fuzzy memory, which may or may not be reliable…)
No. Here’s the difference:
Non-keyed instances and M+ instances are PVE, there’s a natural difficulty progression. If you do non-keyed instances, you get enough gear to keep doing them comfortably and enter low-keyed M+. Now, a key point: if someone from high-keyed M+ comes to your non-keyed one, he isn’t damaging your ability to complete it. Because that’s PVE, you are fighting together.
In random BGs, the first parts are the same, but when someone from high-tier PVP content comes to your low-tier content, he IS damaging your ability to complete it. Because he kills you. Because that’s PVP, you are fighting vs each other.
The reasoning is very simple. If someone does content X all the time, his ability to do X should not be harmed by people who do other types of content. For PVP that means that people doing random BGs should not be outgeared - in these random BGs and only there - by people who are doing higher-tier PVP or high-tier PVE or pet battles or whatever.
Now, we are talking about Blizzard here, so the above sounds like a pipe dream. So, I’d settle for PVP gear having different ilvls in PVE and PVP, and for honor gear being scaled close enough in PVP to conquest gear. Like it was in WoD.
What you are talking about is a definite specific of the two different areas of the game - PvE has always been static. And that’s an argument for some why it is easier than PvP. Noone there, but the game mechanics stops you from winning. Also, you lose, you actually don’t lose anything, if you go on, eventually you get there.
In PvP it’s not like that, it’s a system, in which your success is based on other’s failure and if you lose, you have to first gain back that lost part and then progress.
Imagine if a wipe would bring the raid back to the previous boss, who is magically resurrected…
And that’s the way those 2 different systems work, that’s why they must not be mixed and each should reward best gear for its activity.
But that’s another thing. Then, for PvP this is the core of the PvP activity - your gain is someone’s else loss. That’s PvP.
It is supposed that when you get entry gear you would proceed to rated and slowly, if you are better than the pool of ppl around your rating, progress up.
If you don’t progress, you would, in the good case, play with people with relatively same gear lvl, so they wouldn’t stomp you based on gear.
Yes, the thing that high rated ppl with high gear could potentially come to lower ratings boosting, smurfing, whatever, etc…is bad and I understand your concern, but this is not a reason to base item progression in PvP on it. It calls for other mechanisms to stop or at least make it extremely rare case.
As for people with rated gear, coming to random BGs and stomping BG only players…well, random unrated BG is considered free for all, no offense taken, nothing serious, place to just have random fun so, again, I don’t think decisions for gear progression in PvP should be generally taken based on random BGs.
On the contrary - if you are playing rated and have good gear, there is some sweet point in the fact you can go to BG or World pvp (if it was done well and balanced) to stomp a bit people who don’t want to go rated, hence don’t have your gear lvl.
Also, rated PvP, when lucrative and a lot of people play it is very accessible, it’s the high ratings that are hard to get to, but then, the majority of people play around the lower ratings, so if people participate in arena, they would eventually get at least good pvp gear and won’t be stomped in BGs most of the time excluding the top rated players, but they are a very small % of all players.
Yes, correct, and this is how it is supposed to be, and this is how it works in other games.
But in WoW this doesn’t work. Because in WoW, the barrier between unrated and rated PVP is much higher than in other games. Because WoW was made a long time ago and Blizzard devs continued to neglect PVP for years and failed to update it meaningfully, and after 8-10 years of this neglect WoW PVP is a relic that has huge show-stopper issues that all other PVP games successfully solved.
Say someone plays random BGs, then decides to do rated. What does he have to do? Right, he has to find teammates. Manually. What do other games do here? They have a solo queue which finds teammates for your skill level. Automatically. Try finding partners for rated BGs when all experience that you have is random BGs. You’ll have to do arenas first. For which you also don’t have partners. Cool, right? Why do I not have these problems in LoL? Right, because LoL devs didn’t sit on their as*es doing nothing for 10 years, like Blizzard.
There are five-six more issues like this, including class balance where it’s all about PVE with PVP being always just some post-factum tune-ups, but the very first one is already a show stopper.
So, yeah, it should all work in the way that you describe and people should graduate from unranked to ranked. But in WoW this just doesn’t happen in material amounts and it won’t happen, there are way too many obstacles in the way.
What do you think about the following changes?
- Earn 1250 Honor Points in Rated PvP or 2500 overall.
- Earn 2500 Honor Points in Rated PvP or 5000 overall.
- Earn 6250 Honor Points in Rated PvP or 12500 overall.
Reason: Conquest points themselves are already there to give an incentive to do rated content. No need to also put rated stuff for the vault, it will just make the rich richer and close the barrier for people to play arenas with their alt.
It would be just way better to also put high level of honors one has to earn to increase the bar.
About the neglecting of PvP, the outdated and not good enough systems, the lack of updates etc. I agree, you are right, we know it and it’s been like that for long time.
But this has no direct connection to the matter at hand - the gear. All that you mentioned calls for other measures and changes, that a overdue, but things won’t be fixed when you try to fix one bad side of the system by breaking and distorting another side.
Solo Q is hard to implement successfully in a game like WoW, where you have distinct roles and some setups are pointless. People will either wait for hours in such a thing or be teamed with totally incompatible spec and it will end like skirmishes - useless for anything else but experiments and time wasting.
You can’t compare LoL with WoW. Two very very different games, won’t even go into details but they are not comparable, their PvP is structured completely different from the bottom to the top, from the core of the system - the heroes, to the top - the teams, composition and fights - if there were not items in both games and some resemblance of leveling in LoL I would say - totally different games.
And I by no means want to excuse WoW devs, on the contrary, on these forums I am probably one of the most passionate posters when it comes to wow game design failures and mainly, as I see the main cause for them, the failures of their game director, but in this case you want to fix one bad thing by doing another bad thing, it won’t work that way and wouldn’t be good for the pvp in the game.
I still think blizzard should implement PvP power in the sets, so no matter how powerful is a raider (even mythic raiders) will find it difficult to fight against a blue full geared PvPer mainly because he has more PvP power as a main source of power within the PvP bracket.
I am in favour of Blizzard implementing PvP exclusive rewards by achieving those Rated honor points that would crush anything that doesn’t posses that gear.
Solo Q is hard to implement successfully in a game like WoW, where you have distinct roles and some setups are pointless.
Big disagree. Look at Overwatch, you are describing exactly the same setup. Moreover, we are all soloqueing somehow:
- we all have some setups in your mind you would like to play,
- we use LFG to find people that are within you rating,
- we team up and go.
This process takes ages to do manually and is such a huge pain in the **s, this can be automated.
So glad I haven’t purchased SL I thought casual pvp players would get screwed.
As a casual PvPer myself, I wouldn’t say that’s the case. The upgraded Honor gear alone, or even the default Conquest gear, is pretty good for PvP. You’ll be far better off with that than anything you’ve been able to earn throughout Battle for Azeroth.
Besides, if you do want that weekly vault item, then it’s a simple matter of queuing for a dozen Arena games or so each week. In the old days when we had a PvP vendor, people would just search for a group in chat ala: “LF 2v2 for cap”. Then they’d play their games, get their points, and go back to whatever else they wanted to do until next week. Rinse and repeat.
If there’s one player segment that isn’t being screwed over with the PvP design in Shadowlands, then it’s PvPers themselves. It doesn’t really matter if you’re casual or hardcore, it’s leaps and bounds better than Battle for Azeroth.
The process takes ages, because blizzard ravaged PvP and the number of people playing it declined by a lot.
I haven’t played overwatch for ages and correct me if I’m wrong, but IIRC the reliance on healer in not well organized teams is much much less for everyone than in WoW for some specs who simply can’t do much without one. Overwatch has much less abilities to balance and more or less most champs are similar.
In WoW some specs are notoriously strong 1v1 or with another dps while others fail badly if not supported by a healer.
I see this change in two different ways. On one hand it’s a nice alternative for us PvP players to get an extra item for honor while we play arenas so we can kinda skip M+ but not really. It also makes PvE/casuals not able to cap with random bgs and warmode so they need to play either Arenas or RBGs. It might revive RBG bracket a bit and I see it as positive because RBGs are 100% easier to get in for PvE player or newcommer than Arenas.
On the other hand it’s another step into direction of forcing players into content they don’t like to get rewards which I’m extremely against as many PvE players stand on our side regarding forcing us into M+ so I stay on their side here.
Forcing someone into activity is not the way for fixing broken bracket.
I think it’s their way of resurrecting RBG bracket.
I made few posts on general discussion that RBG is dead and somthing should be done to resurrect it. If you check LFG - it’s completely empty.
The reasons behind that are:
-hard to get into RBG groups as the only existing ones require 2400 exp
-there are only neckbeard RBG Andys kicking you if you are not performing well and it’s hard to do so if you are a newcommer
-no attractive rewards because everything you can get from RBG you can get from arenas with 1-2 extra people not 9
-RBG titles have no seasonal meaning. In arenas you have Sinful Gladiator for Rank 1 which is extremely prestigeous and symbol of accomplishment in Arena while in RBG Hero of The Alliance or Hero of The Horde is the same for every season. If you got it once why would you do it again?
-Nothing new introduced since Legion and people are bored of these already existing RBGs
-Toxic community: bots, 3rd party software, griefing, ddosing. While it wasn’t that big of a problem in Arenas. Bots that automatically kicked enemy, destroyed Totems or reapplied dots were huge problem back then and they already made damage. Ddosing was also a big issue in the Skype era but since we moved from it we should be fine
While I’m happy Blizzard is doing anything to resurrect BGs it’s the lowest effort solution. They didn’t add anything new or didn’t make RBGs more attractive besides forcing people to play rated PvP to get weekly PvP Vault that is 200 ilvl anyway (M+7).
While for me this change is beneficial as for being a PvP player I can get free 197 ilvl piece for every 2 weeks I get weekly vault bonus it makes it impossible to get for people who only play random BGs. I can’t support it as many PvE players and casuals supported me in the topics against forcing people into doing what they don’t like so I feel obliged to stay on their side.
How are you forced exactly? in terms of just vault rewards and as someone who just PvP’s i dont feel forced to do m+ or raiding. I get 3 choices of gear for just doing arenas? The mentality of feeling forced just because theres more options by doing more aspects of the game is wrong no?
If your talking about getting that OP trinket just to be viable in PvP then im with you all the way. But for vault rewards, no ones being forced at all.