Since I saw a ret pal successfully kill Mists 1st boss +29 tyrannical I don’t think they are that bad anymore. They just do about 20-25% less damage minimum than warlocks and survival sadly.
Well Ret dmg wise is usualy in the middle of the pack +/- 3 spots depending on expansion. Thats not the biggest issue tho as they bring very few tools to help a raid or group that is actually helpfull or unique. “oh but i saved someone once with BoP”… Yhea someone screwed up and could have been done with a pot and holy aswell.
Ppl say bring back blessings to give a spot… those unique blessings that only ret had in the past?
I swear the ppl that ask for Exo back, sure change name of blade of justice and vissual/sound and they would be happy thinking they got it back. “oh but it had longer range and did holy dmg” But it only gave 1 HoPo and did less dmg.
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But so does practically every other spec (and some do considerably less).
My feeling is that the main problem with ret is community perception. Once you ignore the outliers, their damage is competitive, and they have utility that can:
- Save wipes (range of heals, BoP)
- Enable themselves and others to cheese mechanics and do more dps
- CC mobs (turn evil)
- Stun with long duration
As well as devo aura being a small group wide damage reduction.
I play in a regular group with one prot and one ret pally, and I find myself getting very used to the utility the pallies bring to the group.
The problem is half the things you mention are, in real situations, useless. Don’t take this as a personal attack but your average key is a +17 and at that point classes/specs are irrelevant because the content is relatively easy.
Once you get to +24 or higher basically everything one shots you, and while immunities are a good quality of life and Lay on Hands can save someone from time to time, it’s not meaningful enough to justify bringing a Retri over other specs.
We all know the real problem…
Their class color is pink…
What kind of DPS class has a pink color?
Right, a class that is ment to be a support 
.
…With that kind of brilliant 2 year old set of mind, what should a class be represent as with the color brown?
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A class which understands jokes perhaps 
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I stand by my original post (way up there).
I guess I should take it as a personal attack because it’s obviously intended as one, but you’re looking at the wrong character…
Please don’t take this personally, but I can’t take anything you say about keys (of any level) seriously as long as you’re hiding behind a level 48 character with a hidden armory.
Was his point mute tho or will you just compleatly dissmiss it due to his char? For me that looks more like an excuse then anything. Only reason ive seen a paladin taken because of any utility we have is because we could cheese a mechanic with bubble and BoP. Thats about it.
Main reason is quite simple, the utility we have aint group wide. An aoe stun will always be better then a single target stun. Group/raid sprint will be better then a single person getting BoP because he wont make it in time (and even then most dmg is magical aint it?). Group/raid stealth etc.
3% dmg mitigation is just far to low and non noticable. It might be good if looked at the numbers for the whole run but from pull to pull did it really help all that much?
His point was that he thinks I don’t know what I’m talking about because he had a quick glance at this character’s armoury and it doesn’t prove that I do high enough keys to be worth listening to. I know that isn’t true, so I dismissed it.
Only when there’s more than one target that needs to be stunned at exactly the same time, which happens rarely. (If the 2 houndmasters after Echelon cast loyal beasts in the same moment (and also happen to be next to each other) my DH’s chaos nova is great. Otherwise it might as well be ST.)
Make what in time? We use BoP to cheese mechanics, not as an emergency life-saving thing. (Don’t soak the rush on Kryxis, don’t kite the fixate in the Stitch gauntlet, etc). These are things that enable more dps, either by the healer spending less time healing, keeping mobs stacked and in one place, or simply enabling dps to keep hitting mobs rather than running away. If you’re having to use BoP (or bubble, for that matter) as an emergency life-saver, you’ve already screwed up.
Only one class has that, so I suppose every dps class could complain about not having it, but it isn’t exclusive to ret.
But let’s talk utility for a moment. I’ll take the 2 druid specs as examples:
- Balance has treats, innervate, 6 second AOE silence, group sprint, knock back, cr, soothe, ability to off heal.
- Feral has a single target stun, an additional ST stun or AOE disorient, group sprint, knock back, cr, sooothe, ability to off heal.
I guess you’d say that’s a lot of utility, and useful utility as well. I mean, you’ve mentioned the group sprint and AOE stun yourself, and everyone agrees that treants and solar beam are very desirable. So that should mean, if utility is so highly valued, both druid dps specs are more desirable for high keys than ret pally.
Highest keys timed by the 3 specs:
- Balance druid +28
- Feral druid +28
- Ret paladin +29
If ret doesn’t have useful utility that’s important for high keys, how do you explain that ret has timed higher keys than those 2 specs that have the exact types of useful utility you mentioned?
I can explain it, and it comes down to 3 little letters. Something that ‘the community’ also seems to mistakenly think ret is bad at.
But much AoE stuns are used to take care of trash groups right, and much of m+ is the handling of trash. Is there a single sittuation when a single target stun is BETTER?
How many tho? Context matters. Whats meta also trickles down to lower lvls. You say so yourself here
Btw… the 29 Ret, for what reason is he taken instead of any other DPS? Any utility he can add can be replaced with a prot and holy. And dps wise as said before, middle of the pack, its not bad but not great either.
Might it have been hes the leader of the group?
‘Take care of’ them in what sense? That’s incredibly vague. You don’t invite someone to your key and tell them to ‘take care of trash groups’.
When it’s ranged and the mob is running away. (I’m pretty sure lock is the only class that has a ranged AOE stun, and that has a cast time so it isn’t totally reliable. The others are all close range.)
Prot AND holy? Prot isn’t meta any more because everyone wants DKs and holy is close to bottom pick for healer, I think. Not sure that you need both to replace ret’s utility, though.
When you actually look at the numbers, practically everything is middle of the pack aside from destro and survival. There isn’t a lot to choose between them, although if you’re going to be picky, ret is above both druid specs.
Far more likely he’s playing with friends (or at least people he knows through the community). Same as most people do at that level. They wouldn’t have timed it if he didn’t provide things the group needed, though. You don’t get carried in a +29.
Ok, with that logic why have stun at all? I really dont get your point here.
You even say Dks are the meta tanks… wonder what ability he could use here. Warriors have a ranged stun, So does DKs, rogues blind.
Really think about what you said here i mean really. Ret has never been meta yet you argue against a prot pal not being meta?
Yhea… thats kinda key here aint it. For the random ret wanting to do m+ this aint an option now is it?
I’m going to ignore all the other stuff because this is starting to degenerate to the level of ‘you stupid’, and I’m not going to reply with ‘no, you stupid’.
This, however, is what it comes down to. Getting into pug groups.
I have already answered this, but I suppose I’ll repeat myself. You claim that ret doesn’t get into pug groups because it doesn’t have ‘the right utility’. I gave you examples of two specs that DO have ‘the right utility’, according to your definition. Those 2 specs don’t have it any easier. In fact, in my experience of playing all 3, they have it somewhat worse. (The only time druid dps have a slightly easier time getting into keys is on raging weeks, but only slightly because hunters can soothe too.)
Your logic is flawed. Ret doesn’t have a hard time getting into keys because it lacks ‘the right utility’. It has a hard time getting into keys because the community thinks it’s bad. Changing the utility around isn’t going to fix community perception.
Unless you have something new to say, I’m not going to continue this conversation.
My main thing is that utility is overblown as i think things like stuns are far more usefull… aoe crowd controll etc. Wasent frost mage some expansion ago nerfed with blizzard, nova and orb kiting?
Ret utility is stagnant and non evolving while other classes get new and exiting things.
“Here are your auras back that wasent all that usefull in the past because of class flavour.”
“Here are your blessings back again but single target only because they are so much more powerfull… but not really” And then taken away again, and i pray that we dont get them back in DF becase like auras, they add nothing to gameplay imo.
Group stealth/sprint/aoe stuns do. Lets also add group collectors like cyclone and slappy hands into that mix.
Btw the other 2 speccs have been on the meta side of the dps charts have they not?
But ill stop aswell if you feel like its falling into the area of calling me things =)
Typical immature poster, attacking the person and not the arguments.
I simply pointed out that your average key is 17 to clarify that you’re not experienced on the matter, if you wanna take that as a personal attack, go ahead, Mr Joestar.
My point still remains, you have no idea what you’re talking about because you have no experience whatsoever on high keys, therefore your opinion on this matter is worthless.
The fact that you ignored everything else on my response speaks for itself.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/tarren-mill/Furryposter
You can just access it just fine, you just can’t directly go to it through the forum.
Just adding my 10 cents here…
For the bigger part of community everything above (and even) +15 is endgame content.
The term “high” key is subjective, as one person (like me) sees a +20 as a high key. Other might think +15 is a high and ppl like you might concider +30 high…
That’s all I wanted to add, please don’t judge players on IO or such nonesense statts.
Ret is simply boring. You want hit Verdict and Blade as much as possible. Crusader Strike has low damage and long CD. Judgement is almost pointless and has too high CD to be used before Storm, Verdict or Blade to make them 25% (lol…) more effective.
Problem with Ret is same as Fury, Frost and Enhancement has. All share almost identical design with their dps rotations.
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Holy Power / Combo Points