There is absolutely no need to read between the lines.
Its directly there in-front of us. Dungeons need a limiting factor.
A different one to raids. Simply because if it was the same as raids, it would become 5-man raids. And that misses the point of M+ by a ton.
Now. Lets consider that deaths DO become a limiting factor. Lets say: Max 20 deaths.
Your party has 19 deaths. And you still got 2 bosses to go. What would you do ? How would you play that dungeon ? And now lets just imagine 1 PuG DPS dies in a stupid way. How much flaming would he get ?
I repeat. You dont need to read between the lines. We see RIGHT NOW what happens when you punish deaths (-15s timer). And your plan is to turn that into overdrive ? Make it even more punishing than what it is now ?
And you think that is a good idea ?
Stop reading between the lines. Sit down. Use 2 neurons and thing it through.
And by the way, the streamers want more clicks and views. Dont believe everything they say.
Death limit would be much worse than a timer, unless it’s some crazy high number like 40-50.
Also, how do you determine score after a run? If remaining deaths is part of it, whoever died more that the others will get blamed for the lesser score at the end.
Personally I don’t think the timer itself is a problem, but rather the harsh penalties we have right now. Death penalties need to be removed all together. It is punishment enough having to run back after a death/wipe. Maybe you wiped on a boss after popping BL? Several minutes down the drain even without any added penalties.
Depletion also needs to be reworked. I think unlimited resets might be too much, but maybe have a couple of charges pr key, so a single bad run doesn’t kill it right away.
For all the things I dislike about M+ the timer is the one thing I actually like. It gives a sense of urgency and pushes you a bit.
I tried a Delve in a group when they started and died, the abuse I got put me off grouping in Delves altogether, so I would imagine this would bring similar toxicity to M+ as well.
There are two fixes that I’d like to see to M+ in the short term:
Everyone has to put their key in for the dungeon to start and risk it being downgraded if it fails; or
Remove the downgrade from the one person who risks their key
Timer is one the most objective criteria. And it is a better criteria than death count. Timer should stay.
If death count is added as another completion criteria, then each M+ should have 2 separate format: completion by timer, or completion by death count.
So players can choose to complete an M+ either by timer, or by death count. And M+ should have 2 separate rating/ranking: 1 rating by timer, 1 rating by death count.
But this is not the most important or urgent problem of current M+. Blizzard needs to realise that M+'s root problem is its content and format.
Content:
Nobody likes to run the same 4 dungeons (other 4 are recycled old ones) over and over for 6 months
Improve the dungeon mechanics, route, affixes design
Make dungeons fun again
Format:
Remove keys. Keys serves no purpose but artificially limit players’ choice of dungeon and levels. Players shall be able to do any dungeons of any level they unlocked.
M+ urgently and eventually needs a Torghast/delve format. Players unlock each M+ dungeon by dungeon, and level by level. Players can only queue/enter a N+1 after they have completed a +N
M+ needs a LFG queue system. The current pug premade method shall stay. But an optional random queue system is needed. (with different item level required and M +N completed need to queue M +N+1)
You’re right and I like the format you suggested above. However, I can’t see Blizzard doing anything that good, which I why I suggest some basic minimum tweaks.
another new player and already full of hate. It’s funny how it’s mostly you, new guys to the game, who believe you are the ones who understand the fundamental issues and you know better what needs to be changed and what matters or not. Full of ideas and solutions, yet none of you even participate in the content you are so eager to change.
What kinda reverse psychology bullsh#t are you trying to pull on me leg nephew? (imagine that in Snoop Dogg’s voice)
We (m+ runners) like Mythic+ as it is now. We just want to rework the reward distribution, and remove the depletion system, since failing the key is already enough punishment. If they do adjustments like that, there will be fewer problems with solo players trying to transition into m+ and ruining the key.
I bet Blizzard asked these questions to Delve players anyway. To find out what they are expecting from M+ to figure out what to do with Delves in reality, since they clearly have no idea.
M+ dosent need a Delves treatment because we already got Delves for that. And LFG system is a NONO. Plenty of threads out there explaining why that “option” is the worst thing you can do in M+.
The whole concept of M+ would change. So yes, stuff would change for them.
Repeat that after being send on a vacation at one point or another.
The concept changes and you are defacto turning every key pushing into a “korean key” like the one I linked.
You want hero track you run 7s, you want mythic truck you run 10s for vault. Loot at the end of the dungeon remains the same, timed or not. You can already take your sweet time if you only care about the end of dungeon chest.
Push groups will do it as well. Because it makes the most amount of sense and they will have to at some point anyhow. Same with pug groups as not to brick the key.
No. The difference is that we know how it works while you evidently don’t.
The whole section is against you and you still think you’re correct. Its hilarious. My arrogance pales in comparison to yours.
You out of all people in this thread can call anybody toxic I’m afraid.
Nothing of this would change with your suggested system. People will still have higher score, people will still have the bragging rights and they will also still have better gear than the rest. Again you bring up “arguments” that arent arguments to begin with.
Good news, they’re literally doing something similar in 11.0.7
Expired timers award -4 crests than what the key would have if it was timed. I believe this is a fair penalty/reward ratio.
As for the OP… Been thinking about it and talking with guild mates. There’s negatives, there’s positives, but it surely won’t affect the high end players. There’s an innate pleasure in trying to do the most ridiculous pull as fast as possible (for some players at least). Ain’t no way people are going to wait around 10 minutes between pulls. I’m not, no one in my usual groups would either. We like being time efficient and finish as many keys as possible in one sitting.
Now would we wait a 10 sec here, 15 sec there for things to align perfectly in this system? Maybe.
The next question this begs is what is the correct counter? Too few deaths and it can actually make keys even harder than a timer. Too many and it’s absolutely trivial. We’ve managed to time keys with 10 deaths before (2 full wipes). So a death count of 10 could potentially ruin an otherwise achievable win with a timer.
I think the key depletion and reward is the biggest source of toxicity in this game mode. Not the timer itself.
The other major problem is that there’s no good bridge between a level 8 delve and a +8 key. All these quite well geared delvers are looking for the next step up crest wise, and they can’t get it from any relevant game mode to them, thus are jumping on keys, having had no previous serious interaction with the system.
I doubt it. I think the primary issue is unresolvable (well, we just have to say then: this content is not for the average player); a vast difference in players (mindset, experience now, experience in the past, alt/main, time played, runs performed, …). This all is kind of enhanced due to the highly repetitive nature of M+.
I don’t think anyone enjoys struggling in content they have easily cleared 20 times before. It almost feels like putting Go-cart drivers among F1-drivers in that regard; doomed to fail from the joy-perspective (either side).
I don’t understand what it would fix. People would still be picky, still treat the dungeon run as something precious which should be protected from less competent players, still get miffed when things don’t go according to plan if that is their nature, there’d still be a meta… I don’t understand the point.
My guess is the only way to fix these things, if that is the intention, is to make it so that people feel they have much less to lose, and failure is still very rewarding. But Death Count instead of Timer won’t accomplish that.
Yeah I hear you but that correlates to the points I made. Let me explain. So there’s a demographic issue for sure.
A lot of more advanced players want to cut their losses short asap because there’s no reward incentive (although whilst playing a non meta class I really don’t understand how going back and waiting 30 minutes for a group to form is any better than spending those extra 10 minutes to finish a potentially failed key).
Less people feel inclined to run keys, because it’s often a complete mess and the rewards are bad, thus less people get to actually train by putting the play time and become better at the mode.
If more keys are being run because the game mode is less punishing and more rewarding, overtime there are going to be more and more skilled players. And that’s going to translate across the board.
More players within the +2 to +7 will show up. Some of these players will slowly become players that clear +10s and finally more and more people are going to feel comfortable pushing for score at +12 and above.
TLDR:
Essentially a combination of both what you and I said. The system isn’t friendly, reinforcing a demographic of elitist behaviours. If the system becomes more accessible, more people might discover they actually enjoy it, and put the time on becoming better at it.
Could be worth a try. Something needs to change. Maybe have a 60 minute timer in the instance something like FFXIV has.
Adding 5 mins to each dungeon and remove the affixes except for the kiss curse ones would be more enjoyable too.
It is connected because TWW m+ is a direct answer to their pleas and see how well it played out?
the fundamental tank/dps self-sustain nerfs and heal changes
the peril affix
the encounter design being: “just make it hit like a truck even if you do everything well”
the abrupt difficulty bumps on +10, +12 (which is a clear departure from their 8.0 philosophy of moving fortified/tyrannical to m2 in 8.0, down from m10 so the curve is smoother)
The majority simply hates it with a good reason (it was never designed with the avg player in mind, you know those who you meet ingame), nor did ever ask for such changes.
Since the introduction of m+, so for almost a decade now, blizzard never ever commented on the leavers in m+. This time they did, even if it was not meant in the way most ppl interpreted it, its a very clear indication of the state of TWW m+.
I think you make quite a big assumption here, namely that people want to train/learn/practice/…this isn’t always the case currently in M+. And to be very blunt, those have no place in M+ regardless of how it changes.
I hold the opinion that we should be careful in changing the M+ system all too much. Because if you change it to cater the group which only does something because they got indirectly pushed into that direction, it may actually hurt the ones who do M+ because they actually like the content.
They are probably better off looking into the social cohesion within the playerbase. Because that’s currently crumbling and falling apart quite rapidly. It’s quite often close to impossible to communicate with your fellow M+ group members…I have no idea how anyone is ever gonna really enjoy the content that way…
To make a long story short; there is currently already an answer to most issues in M+, it lies in one’s social contacts. Yes, depletion can be tweaked. Yes, rewards can be adjusted. But overall M+ just isn’t for everyone and that is ok. We don’t have to make everyone love M+. It’s not gonna happen.
