What is your current M+ burnout?

[Alewín-argent-dawn]

@Skullfox-argent-dawn

I dont think he has some agenda to kill m+ Seriously?

It would be pretty silly, but it is unfortunately the Dragonflight cycle repeating. DF S1 was harsh, requiring +20s for myth track vaults, and I think 17s for top tier crests. It was very frustrating for many players as a gulf formed between those doing 20s, and those not. Paired with stiff difficulty and some gross healer imbalances, it was a really bad time for me personally.

S2 was a total rowback on this, giving us mere 16s needed for myth track. Great season to collect mythic transmog, and I was happy about that because a couple of sets were particularly fantastic and I was able to grind out the crests with nought but time.

S3 and 4 went down the middle with +18s/+8s, were popular with players, and honestly should have been the target for gameplay and subjective difficulty for the future.

Unfortunately, as often happens in WoW, lessons are learned, and forgotten… and must be learned again. Idk if it’s due to different development teams or what, but we seem to have taken a step back in terms of accessible, fun content, and are again looking at a the same situation that had a lot of players drop from the game once before.

The funny thing is, it doesn’t matter what the actual difficulty of the “weekly” M+ key for myth track is, in absolute terms. What matters is that it stops getting fiddled around, because every time the difficulty spikes, a bunch of players wave goodbye for a few months. It’s dumb, and pointless, and silly, because the entire selling point of M+ is that it is already infinitely scaling. Getting your weekly 10 (or 8, or 6) done need not be a gruelling task. People who want challenge can go do 15s, 20s, 25s, whatever. But the common man, the mortal player, might just pause their sub if they can’t get anything done with their game time.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Do you understand how statistics work? If you have a billion dead chars who had like 1 run… what is the percentage taken from? From all chars, even the dead ones. And if one guy has 10 dead chars, the statistics falsely show you how as if it was 10 players. That’s the whole point. Those 10% from X don’t matter much, when X consists of like 50% being dead chars.
Did you comprehend this now? Was it clear enough?

That is not what Raider IO publishes. They dont have ALL the data. It sais they get top 500 runs per day per server. How many dead characters do you need to squew that ? In addition, you would need dead characters that have timed a +10 or something ONCE and only ONCE in the season (HIGHLY improbable). Because if they time a 2+ they dont count.

So again. You claim to know that info, but you dont understand it. Dead characters are not counted.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

So again. You claim to know that info, but you dont understand it. Dead characters are not counted.

Dude this is literally wrong. Go check the data yourself.
You have ~1,2 mil chars on EU, dead characters included. Even the ones who did only one +2 not in time with 0 score.
The cutoffs you linked, show you that (as an example) there are ~600k chars with 1,5k+ which is ~50%. And 50% from what? The total of 1,2 mil, which includes the dead characters… obviously…

So how can you keep claiming I am not understanding it while you literally ignore reality and the data you provided yourself?

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

You have ~1,2 mil chars on EU, dead characters included.

NO. The total is not 1.2M chars. There are more than that. Its just that Raider IO dosent have that data. That is what the “cutoffs” mean.

In other words. There are people that don’t show up at all. ADDITIONALLY, there are people that show up with 1 +2 but in reality have everything timed on +3. For example.

And in that group there are people with low RIO. Because they get the top 500 WEEKLY.

If those dead characters played their dungeon on a Wednesday (which is true on the 17 I randomly checked) they will show on that stat. If they play on a Saturday they wont.

This is what Raider IO has to say about it :

1) Try to run your dungeons early in the week.
Each realm will always accept the first 500 runs that are completed for a dungeon after reset, and the minimum rank will slowly increase as the week goes on. The earlier in the week you run your keys, then the higher chance these runs will make it into the Top 500 and be able to be picked up by RaiderIO.

Let me underline that for you :

able to be picked up by RaiderIO.

So there are runs that are not picked up by Raider IO. Which ones ? The high keys ? NOPE. The low keys.

So BINGO. You got your answer there.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

NO. The total is not 1.2M chars. You have more than that. Its just that Raider IO dosent have that data. That is what the “cutoffs” mean.

And in that group there are people with low RIO. Because they get the top 500 WEEKLY.

This is the total they show. And while you claim:

@Uda-uldum

you would need dead characters that have timed a +10 or something ONCE and only ONCE in the season (HIGHLY improbable). Because if they time a 2+ they dont count.

This is factually wrong. Because those dead characters, with untimed +2, even the only dungeons they played 6 weeks ago and never ever again, are in the 1,2 mil pool.

@Uda-uldum

Let me underline that for you :

able to be picked up by RaiderIO.

So there are runs that are not picked up by Raider IO. Which ones ? The high keys ? NOPE. The low keys.

So BINGO. You got your answer there.

This is all great and what are you suggesting now? You have ~600k players having ~1,5k score and those are ~50% of what? You really trying to claim you have this data but not the total while the total we have is, according to you, wrong?
So what is it now? You claim the dead chars are not counted even tho the maths they do show otherwise.
Now you trying to suggest there are untracked chars, somewhere… ok so be it… then how exactly did you just make an argument, that you are not assuming the %?
Like… you are literally doing mental gymnastics here… first you throw around the statistics, while making false claims and at the same time tell me not to assume anything, while doing what exactly? The same?.. lmao…

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

You really trying to claim you have this data but not the total while the total we have is, according to you, wrong?
So what is it now? You claim the dead chars are not counted even tho the maths they do show otherwise.

Correct. What I am claiming is that the total is larger than published by Raider IO. And we know that the “missing” people are in the lower tiers.

We cant say for sure how many. What we can say is that there are MORE people with less thatn 2500 RIO than the data shows.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

So what is it now? You claim the dead chars are not counted even tho the maths they do show otherwise.

Its not “math” that show this. DATA shows SOME dead chars are taken into account.

What it also shows is that dead characters are vastly insufficient to transform a 10% KSM to a 40% KSM like you claim.

[Nekrany-tarren-mill]

This week i did 1 m+ on +8 to get a random gear piece - 2 delves, and 2 rewards hc raid bosses.
Previous weeks i was at full rewards on each slot.
And i dont know what happens with my aggro lately - it feels like i lose aggro on each pack on some random mob.

This is probably my last week until next big patch. The dificulty vs rewards is way out of proportion. Maybe its a skill issues, maybe im too casual - i switched to hearthstone while wathing youtube. I dont need sweat from under my arm pits on each pull - thanks Blizzard.
Also - the run that i did on +8 - FU huntards for staying in frontals - 8 deaths from 1 person. xD

I lvled up my alts to max - after i reached max level i would instant log out - 0 play time on them at max lvl.
This weeks i collected my t2 transmogs and did some random battle pets wich i havent done since GARRISONS - that`s how i feel - that garrisons were more fun.

[Turnon-burning-legion (Turnon)]

i came after break in DF season 3
i found out about shadowlands meta achievement
and tomorrow i will be finally done with it

imagine i need to do covenant dailies and anima farm and choregast for upgrades EVERY SINGLE DAY. on 4 characters

curve = done
all dungeon portals = done
zekvir = to be done
2.5k (helmet transmog ) = done

expansion is boring 6/10
if i havent got old things to do (pre tww ones) i would not renew sub

[Nemmar-eonar (Nemmar)]

It was tough at the beginning cause of the gearing barrier.
There are some affixes that are still a pain. But, it’s become better. It’s mostly “ok” now.
I find healers are still kind of unbalanced and guile as an affix should just debuff 3 people. There are too many nasty overlaps and classes that can hardly self dispel.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

Correct. What I am claiming is that the total is larger than published by Raider IO. And we know that the “missing” people are in the lower tiers.

We cant say for sure how many. What we can say is that there are MORE people with less thatn 2500 RIO than the data shows.

So you are literally assuming?

@Uda-uldum

Its not “math” that show this. DATA shows SOME dead chars are taken into account.

I guess at least you finally acknowledge now that you have dead characters in this statistics? Obviously IF you do the maths, you gonna have proof that the dead chars are in the statistics. Without doing the math, you are not gonna see it. Just like you didn’t until now.

@Uda-uldum

What it also shows is that dead characters are vastly insufficient to transform a 10% KSM to a 40% KSM like you claim.

And there we go… you failing to comprehend what was said.

1. I said where I have my data from. My approach was more realistic but based on the data from WoWhead, which still is data from rio.
2. Go check the data manually, I have reviewed the data in bullet points, and there are at least over 300k dead characters. I didn’t go further since I am not getting paid for this but I am sure there is MUCH more. It’s just logical.

And that’s the whole point. You did not do maths and did not check the data at all. But at this point it doesn’t even matter if my “assumption” is right or wrong. It’s just hilarious how you literally assume stuff, while you were ignoring factual data (the dead chars in the stats) and tell me how I should not assume anything. Peak irony

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

So you are literally assuming?

I am not assuming. Raider IO sais it.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I didn’t go further since I am not getting paid for this but I am sure there is MUCH more. It’s just logical.

Now this is an assumption.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Peak irony

Correct.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

I am not assuming. Raider IO sais it.

So if they say it and it’s not an assumption, please do provide the data so we can do maths.

@Uda-uldum

Now this is an assumption.

This is called a logical conclusion based on the data given. You not understanding it, basically just proves my point even further.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

So if they say it and it’s not an assumption, please do provide the data so we can do maths.

There is no math to be done. They literally admit that they only have partial data and consider only the highest keys completed. Which means that there are a bunch of low keys that are not counted.

I am not trying to figure out an exact number of people that achieved KSM. I am just saying that its lower than the published number. That is all. Because that is all the data can tell us.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

This is called a logical conclusion based on the data given. You not understanding it, basically just proves my point even further.

So when you do it its “logical conclusion”. But when I do it its an “assumption” ?

The difference is that you make up numbers and stack assumptions on top of assumptions (eg a quote from you: “I am sure that there is much more”). I just take the raw data as is. Nothing to interpret.

So if anything, I am making logical assumptions. And you are not.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

I am not sure about what you two are arguing about but its hilarious to watch!

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

There is no math to be done. They literally admit that they only have partial data and consider only the highest keys completed. Which means that there are a bunch of low keys that are not counted.

I am not trying to figure out an exact number of people that achieved KSM. I am just saying that its lower than the published number. That is all. Because that is all the data can tell us.

Did you not tell me to not assume anything? I at least took data that makes sense. You take data including tons of dead characters and unknown number of people.

@Uda-uldum

So when you do it its “logical conclusion”. But when I do it its an “assumption” ?

I check the data, you literally assume. How is that the same? Go through data then, like I did. Didn’t you want to be an adult and make proper arguments? What happened?

@Uda-uldum

The difference is that you make up numbers and stack assumptions on top of assumptions (eg a quote from you: “I am sure that there is much more”). I just take the raw data as is. Nothing to interpret.

I don’t make it up, that’s the thing you don’t understand. You fail to think logically and you are too lazy to check the data. Or you simply fail to understand what you see. Either way, that’s not my problem.
Somewhere around ~635k (out of tracked 1,2 mil btw) is where you find the first non dead chars. This would mean around 30% of somewhat active chars have KSH.
Now obviously I was not sitting here and manually counting every single but you are free to do that yourself. But I did far more than you to have a somewhat realistic conclusion. My argument is based on what we have, not on unknown and guessing.

@Uda-uldum

So if anything, I am making logical assumptions. And you are not.

The irony is real. Not only did you fail to comprehend the data while denying facts (dead characters being literally counted), you literally make up stuff based on “they said” without checking the data and then somehow call it logical assumption. Ma dude you are crazy.
At least you are acknowledging that you are assuming yourself.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I check the data, you literally assume. How is that the same? Go through data then, like I did. Didn’t you want to be an adult and make proper arguments? What happened?

Im bored of this discussion.

Its literally in Raider IOs webpage. There is not “assumption”, “calculation” or “analysis” to be done. They are literally telling us with a straight face that they are missing the lower tiers of data.

So they are literally telling us that the total they claim to publish is under-counted.

And you come up with all this BS:

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Somewhere around ~635k (out of tracked 1,2 mil btw) is where you find the first non dead chars. This would mean around 30% of somewhat active chars have KSH.
Now obviously I was not sitting here and manually counting every single but you are free to do that yourself. But I did far more than you to have a somewhat realistic conclusion. My argument is based on what we have, not on unknown and guessing.

Like… who cares if you don’t have the total number ?

You can do all the math you want. Whatever result you reach, Raider IO has already said that there are more that you did not count.

Therefore, invalidating whatever “math” and “conclusions” you come up with.

Yish !

Have it your way… this is boring…

[Tsjoh-argent-dawn (Tsjoh)]

I also think it is quite an assumption every char with only 1 +2 registered is a dead character. The bottom 10 keylevels are removed. People who were playing those keylevels before now try a +2 and fail it or consider it too hard and return playing heroics and M0. Those are active players too.

Obviously there ARE dead character. Nobody denies that. But it is quite an assumption every char, or the majority, or whatever amount is dead.

When we look at the cutoffs of for example an easier season like DF season 3, players with all 10’s timed was 50% of the characters. That means that 50% who did not make it to all 10’s aren’t playing M+ at this moment.
Obviously in that 50% are also dead characters, but who knows the %… I don’t.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

Im bored of this discussion.

Its literally in Raider IOs webpage. There is not “assumption”, “calculation” or “analysis” to be done. They are literally telling us with a straight face that they are missing the lower tiers of data.

So they are literally telling us that the total they claim to publish is under-counted.

Then explain this: Why is every single alt I have in this statistics and every single char I ever checked too, with the correct ingame data?
What exactly is your assumption based on that we have untracked ACTIVE characters? Unless you are trying to argue about untracked dead characters which are literally irrelevant for the statistic anyway?

@Uda-uldum

Like… who cares if you don’t have the total number ?

Like… are you for real? You are throwing around with numbers trying to play smart azz and say who cares about the total number? lmao… can’t make this up.

@Tsjoh-argent-dawn

I also think it is quite an assumption every char with only 1 +2 registered is a dead character. The bottom 10 keylevels are removed. People who were playing those keylevels before now try a +2 and fail it or consider it too hard and return playing heroics and M0. Those are active players too.

They might be active players in the game but not in the M+ scene, even tho this is just another assumption we are chasing here. They tried it and quit it. That’s what makes them dead characters.

@Tsjoh-argent-dawn

Obviously there ARE dead character. Nobody denies that.

This is literally what he did lol^^

@Tsjoh-argent-dawn

But it is quite an assumption every char, or the majority, or whatever amount is dead.

You obviously need to have a definition for that. But how is someone relevant who is not even trying to achieve KSM or KSH because he is not playing? That’s what I define as a dead character.

[Tsjoh-argent-dawn (Tsjoh)]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

You obviously need to have a definition for that. But how is someone relevant who is not even trying to achieve KSM or KSH because he is not playing? That’s what I define as a dead character.

Yeah you personal definition is fine, of course. I am not debating personal definitions
But truth is, active players are kicked out of M+ since DF season 4 with the removal of the bottom 10 keylevels. And i am afraid; it are a lot of players.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Tsjoh-argent-dawn

Yeah you personal definition is fine, of course. I am not debating personal definitions
But truth is, active players are kicked out of M+ since DF season 4 with the removal of the bottom 10 keylevels. And i am afraid; it are a lot of players.

This would require a rule we need to go by, which can be very subjective. I’d personally exclude people who are simply not actively playing M+. I have to conclude he goes by somewhat similar, since he was even trying to claim that +2 timed are not counted.