So if they don’t love each other, then they won’t switch. Blood Elves will remain as “Blood Elves” because their name is symbolic to the Third War.
She’s unstable with her emotions, so it stands to reason the Blood Elves remain on the Horde with Lor’themar at the helm.
Rommath, Liadrin and Hauldoran as his sensible-minded advisors.
Doesn’t matter.
The High Elves tortured and attacked innocent Blood Elves. It is enough reason for them to not side with them or the Alliance again.
Stormwind troops also came to attack them. No, Blood Elves have had 2 dealings with the Alliance now. They can’t be trusted.
Yes, but we all know the high elves and night elves and their civilziations are alliance based, this is what the alliance is based on - civilziation the way elves and humans in warcraft are written to do it, whether kaldorei pre-sundering, or high elven thalassian, human, dalaran, draenei - it’s all alliance themed.
No one makes those arguments for orcs or Trolls - zandlaar or gurubashi - because they are not alliance based. These playable elves on both factions are alliance based.
You can’t steal from the horde what is not horde - and you shouldn’t be viewing it as that anyway.
This is about making the alliance popular and appealing again and restoring it’s best assets to it that shoudln’t be on the horde, while developing the original horde themed races better and doing something more unique with what ever elves remain there.
It’s only unpleasant to you, because you don’t like the idea of it, nothing to do with whether it’s a good move or correct move that will solve the issue, you’ve convinced yourself that high elves are horde like and kaldorei civilization is horde like because they are horde members, and are ignoring that everything about them is alliance save their faction allegiance.
Never considered you’re devotion is blinding you?
I don’t believey ou would for a minute… you’d be upset at first, i’m sure, but you’d be okay with it
She hates their allegiance specifically.
For some reason.
Someone forgot to give her the memo that the Alliance didn’t really give the Blood Elves a choice, which bothers me.
She is mentally unstable, that is what she is.
And it becomes quite clear in how you describe her.
No, it is not.
The Night Elves were never given a reason as to why they joined the Alliance. Tyrande disliked both Alliance and the Horde back during the Third War, and only teamed up with both out of necessity. Malfurion, although being the more rational one and considering them allies against the legion, ended up proving to be somewhat skeptical himself.
Why the Night Elves joined up with the Alliance makes no sense. WHy people consider the ‘High Elves’ to be Alliance themed when they were never hyper Alliance to begin with, is just Lord of the Rings talking.
Warcraft… is… not… Lord of the Rings.
High Elves is still not Alliance themed.
That said, the only thing needed is free transfers from Horde to Alliance, done. That is the only solution.
Brigante never seemed blinded at all, he appears extremely rational to me.
No, hang on, some things -are- defined though. If you do the quests on both Alliance and Horde, you see exactly how the Purge went down. Jaina could have sent in the Dalaran Peacekeepers to make arrests. I mean that is what they are -for- right? She didn’t, she sent a Sectarian group led by a woman she knows -hates- the Horde, and by extension the Blood Elves. So we have either of two options. a) Jaina is criminally incompetent and naive, or b) She knew exactly what she was doing. She watches the murder happen on the streets and does nothing to stop it.
Is it though? You hear her say on the Isle of Thunder “They killed my Husband!” Well they didn’t, did they? I mean there are only Blood Elves there. She is directly blaming them. We happen to know that of the Sunreavers in Dalaran at the time of the Purge 100% of them were innocent. Heck, Aethas Sunreaver even -backed- Jaina during Theramore. One Sunreaver was responsible for the Mana Bomb. One. She thinks ordering the death and torture of innocent civilians is somehow OK as a result?
It really isn’t! We see quite plainly, that whilst Lor’themar was quite happy to enter talks with the (fairly bloodthirsty) King Wrynn prior to the Purge, that he is now totally dismissive of the (peaceable) King Anduin’s request to enter talks post Purge. That is pretty clear cut. Quel’thalas is -Not- willing to forgive and forget, and frankly, nor should they be. That is the lore as it stands. Quel’thalas is still rightly furious with the Alliance, and whilst they will co-operate against greater evils, they are most definitely not interested in joining the Alliance right now.
No we don’t.
You keep saying this, and when I ask where you get this belief from you cannot provide an answer. They are not Alliance based. Both Culture’s predate the Alliance by -thousands- of years.
This is simply not true.
Good, We’re agreed then. Blood Elves and Nightborne are both Horde, and therefore you cannot steal them. I am sorry if you do not like the lore that has propelled things to this point, but it is, regardless, the -Lore-.
In your opinion. Others vastly differ with your opinion. And as we have sort of established by your dismissive lack of regard for the other Alliance races, this isn’t about making the Alliance popular again at all, is it? It is about taking Elves from the Horde and giving them to Alliance.
No, I find it irksome because it starts off with a basically flawed conceit, which is that Blood Elves and Nightborne are somehow belonging to the Alliance, when there is no lore backing for this claim, and indeed the lore proves it false, as both cultures existed before the Alliance ever did.
Kaldorei may well have allied with the Alliance, as indeed they have. That does not mean that Shal’dorei and Sin’dorei have to follow suit, when they have strong grounds (especially in the latter case) not to like/trust the Alliance.
I have weighed the matter up, and no, I do not think it does. Can you answer the lore related questions I asked you in my previous post or will you simply repeat “They belong to Alliance” as if your own personal opinion makes such a fact?
Oh I would…I really would. If they took away the thing that made Blood Elves appealing to me in the first place, that they were actually where the Elves of our legends and myth would be, and tried to shoehorn them into some LOTR clone, that’d be me done. Because then they’re not ‘proper’ Elves in my eyes. I’d unsub right away. I’m a middle aged man, I have better things to do with my time than pander to someone’s Tolkien wishlist.
I try to be so, but good grief some people do test that…
The point is, the horde doesn’t need blood elves with the civilization of the high elves to remain on the map, it’s already popular enough. High elves can return to the alliance in their fullness, while blood elves remain playable departing away from their high elven origin and those that remain losing the majority of their kin to their high elven roots (i.e. they choose to call themselves high elves again).
It is neither selfish nor unfriendly. It’s there to restore the alliance and make it exciting for what the alliance is, and make the horde less alliance dominant which is exactly what having high elf like blodo elves in a high elf city and land and night elf civilziation nightborne in a very night elven lands and civilziations is doing.
That’s a very poor definition of selfish if you ask me, especially when the proposal includes many troll and orc cities and territories coming into the horde to replace the loss of the high elf and night elf stuff.
Only a player that doesn’t regard Orc, troll, tauren, goblin or forsaken assets as important and relevant would think this a bad trade - only a person that likes the alliance stuff and likes it being on the horde would want this state of affairs to continue even though it undermines the alliance, weakening it’s strongest appeal and dilutes the horde. that person to me is being quite selfish, not thinking of the bigger picture.
Let’s see Brigante…
You’re playing a society based on the high elves, in a high elf city, in high elf lands, with a high elf mindset. The Light, order, nobility, arcane magic, the type of concept of city living and structure that is native to the alliance, in a people that are closely connected to and upon which human civilization is based on and shares many parallels with, which was exclusively the purview of the alliance till they shifted them over in TBC -
And you don’t get the feeling you’re playing an alliance race on the horde? Now you’re just being stubborn.
Where? Who cares where, I say give the orcs another great city, let the horde be full of orc, troll, goblin, tauren culture, architecture etc, far more so than alliance based elves.
Want something different from that? Then do something like the Pandaren, the Naga, the Venthyr etc, just don’t do high elves and night elves beacuse that already belonged to the alliance and is still a major part of it both historically and thematically. The alliance is built on what the elves and the humans represent, if you take high elves and night elves to the horde and don’t change them from that, you’re just bringing hte alliance to theh orde.
I
I don’t see why you would resist or complain about the Mag’har getting something more or better - except off course you didn’t like or appreciate htem, and only appreciated the alliance based blood elves and Nightborne - which tells me you like the allianec on the horde, and actually don’t erally care for the core horde.
5
No, tha’ts what you want my agenda to be, but it clearly isn’t ofc, you don’t find anything wrong with wanting more hgih elven and night elven stuff, but not more troll and orc stuff on the horde - yety ou don’t seem to even recgonsie when it’s pointed directly out to you that you like the alliance, not the horde, and players like you should be pulled back to the alliance with the civilization of hte high elves and night elves, that belong there… you would restore our numbers somewhat and allow the horde to returnt o being a very separate entity, rather than this half alliance and horde almagmation it has become which is quite far from it’s original core and making the faction conflict and dimorphism near meaningless because it’s too homogenised.
you can’t see the obvious conflict of remaining true to the core of warcraft when half the alliance, and the coolest bits of it are sitting on the horde in the form of the high elves’ and night elves’ civilization and culture. and you can’t see that this is a problem… right…
So you are basically saying, you don’t want a cool goblin city or 2, as well as a beuatiful goblin island, so you can keep a very alliance based group of blood elves in their high elven city and home as well as kaldorei civilization.
You prefer those to that of the goblins, orcs and trolls - and you think this is okay for the horde. And you think you like the horde? Right…
Soo your prorosal then is to have alliance elves and humans becuase you have got too much of orcs and trolls - horde native races, so you fight with alliance players who want more elves and humans, their elves and humans with their sub-races on their own faction with their own races’ cultural assets… right.
So I’m the one that’s greedy - because those very alliance blood elves and night elven nightborne are suggested to return to the alliance they are entirely based on – with their numbers replaced by troll tribes and goblin cartels, as well as orc groups - what the horde is based on.
You even ignore that the blood elves develop into something different that is not high elven and the Nightborne something that is not kaldorei civilization based - so the horde can be distinct and unique with little to nothing of the alliance in it.
But I’m the one that’s selfish and greedy…right…
Except their entire culture, their civilization, their zones, their nature, their protrayal, their attitude - basically everything but the name High elf and the Highborne.
Everyone but you seems to understand that Blood elves and Nightborne are essentially High elf Thalassians and Highborne Night elves signed up with the horde. Don’t fit the horde, don’t feel part of it, they are essentially alliance components there.
I find it hard to believe true horde players will feel they are suffering when those alliance type blood elves and Nightborne return there and are mostly replaced by cooler Troll, orc, tauren and goblin assets.
Somehow I don’t think true horde fans will consider that “suffering” but rather a fixing of an issue. And for once alliance fans will agree too.
You still refusing to see it huh, you shouldn’t be blaming my observation, it’s blizzard that wrote the alliance to represent the sense of civilization, culture, magic, ideology, law and order, nobility that the elves and humans they included actually represent, they did that. And it is they that chose the blood elven versions and Nightborne ones would be true to those ideals and not deviate from them… they chose that because they wanted the alliance elements on the horde.
Pointing that out doesn’t make it incorrect, now they must realise that the continuation of this is no longer needed and is actually harming the product rather than helping it. The return of what was borrowed to the horde from the alliance, would heal and invigorate the alliance as well as consolidate the horde, providing an all round win… but that’s for them to see.
And it didn’t occur to you, that this isn’t cool to you because you don’t view the horde races like orcs, troll, goblins or tauren cool, but alliance races like elves.
What does that tell you about you?
Yes, bias is a word synonymous with myth and no one that is credible ever uses that term to explain what they observe, because only Trump supporters and the deluded think such terms are real…
You should come back in 5 years and read the stuff you’re writing.
Right, alliance fanbase aren’being fair for insisting that SIlvermoon, home of the high elves and Suramar kaldorie city of origin for the Darnassian faction and famous oirgin story account for the night elves - actually be part of hte high elves and night elves on the alliance instead of the horde -
so it’s these alliance fans that aren’t being fair? Not only that, when they suggest the return of these assets and culture from the horde be replaced by twice as much stuff from horde races - you still think they’re not being fair at all…
Basically in your own words, no amount of horde race improvements compares t that of the alliance themed blood elves and nightborne - which is why losing them is inconsolable to you and irreplaceable - gaining horde core race assets mean nothing to you, but losing alliance themed elven ones from the horde means everything to you… right…
Yes, they do.
Erm, hello, the core of Warcraft, horde and alliance being different cultural and focused entities as originally defined and by which Warcraft is based on.
The mantra the devs keep coming out with, "sticking tot he core of warcraft2, “maintaining the heart of Warcraft”
Those reasons are the very reasons why blood elves cannot remain as high elves on the horde with high elven assets a, culture, nobility, ideology etc, nor can nightborne continue in the night elven civilization, Highborne culture, assets, and history they’ve been operating in on the horde if we are going to keep the original core of Warcraft and maintain it properly.
If blood elves and nightborne are to continue, they must become something different. They can become something new, but it cannot be high elven nor kaldorei civilization based, Highborne or otherwise, that’s tied intrinsically by nature to the alliance as the alliance is based on such things.
It is also the best way to attract players back to the alliance.
They have many a good reason from the lore to depart form the horde and cement friendship and allegiance with the alliance.
Anyone who played through 7.0 Suramar campaign would find it unbelievable that the same Nightfallen resistance that won control of the city and persuaded their kin would put up with or condone the actions of the war of thorns, it defies eveyrthing they believe in, stand for and represent, and it should appall them utterly… That’s reason enough - never mind the likeness to many alliance races and the presence of their own kin - added to Silvermoon going alliance… seriously, only the odd Nightborne fanatical about the horde or in line with its actions would remain there.
Not hte best pals? what evidence do you have for that? Give me one reason why Shen’dralar#s new Highborne order wouldn’t be very much at home and welcome amongst their highborne kin in Suramar or the Moonguard who seemed to be getting on quite well with the Nightbonre in 7.0 and 7.1 would not continue.
You’re the one not making sense, there are far too many strong reasons that make both Blood elves in Silvermoon but especially Nightborne of Suramar prefer the alliance over the horde - this is what happens when you use alliance themed and based races and don’t change them enough - they will always have more in common with the alilance than the horde, and htey would always be the alliance on the horde.
if you want hte horde and alliance separate and distinct, you need to remove the allaince from the horde. If you want the alliance attractive to players again, restore the fullness of the leevn kingdoms to it and boost their story there.
Yes, the very night elven, Kaldorei dude, in druidic traditions and kaldorei traditions and character from both a pre-sundering druidic and long vigil perspective.
Yes, abundant evidence that not only can shal’dorei get on well with kaldorei highborne and Moonguard arcane types, but also kaldorei druid and priest types too, because guess what, they’re a kaldorei based civilization, the pre-sundierng night elf civilziation is the zenith point of the type of civilization and outlook the entire alliance is based on.
Basically you have origin point on aracne magic, civilization, benevolence, law and order, nobility based structure and many of the societal constructs high elves and humans have a variation of.
You simply don’t get more alliance than this… it’s absurd it’s actually in it’s highest form on the horde - it completely destroys the integrity of the horde and undermines the alliance. just by existing there. It may have been okay to get alliance players over a decade ago to populate the horde … but now the horde is over populated and quite popular, they are certainly not needed.
Trust me, it is far easier for me to see blood elves choosing to return to being high elves, declaring theri period of mourning is over, and the horde after Garrosh and now Sylvanas, the abusrdity and bruatlity of the orcs, trolls and the undead, just really not being for them… ocnstnalty asked to take course of afa action that go against everything htey’ve ever stood for. even taking fel to survive is nothing compared to the atrocitieis and violence they’ve had to perpetuate under the horde.
Nlizzard writest hese blood elves as high elves, and high elves would be fed up of this, it is very easy to see all these blood elves in Quel’thalas choosing to return and identify as high elves.
twice so far they’ve almost aligned with the alliance, and they know the alliance leaders, Anduin, Alleria, Vereesa, Turalyon, Velen, the Highborne will welcome them with open arms, this has been shown many times.
The story writes itself already, no more weird lore twists trying to force an un-natural alliance, this is one development that flows and fits. Only you don’t see it.
It would be the most welcome surprise if it happens.
Well , if I don’t care about the alliance, then I must care about the horde right? Which means my actions will be serving to better the horde - in which case if you love the horde like you claim, you should be supporting this.
It’s claer I’m focused on improving the horde, and while my statements do benefit the alliance, the horde are the principle beneficiaries - so why are you complaining? Oh right, I’m fighting for orc/troll/tauren/goblin improvements and you’re not interesting in those (i.e. the true hordE) you’re just interested in the alliance races on the horde.
Core ethos? You mean the alliance nature of the blood elves? Who really are an alliance race on the horde? They’re just going back to where they belong and come form, well most of them, so blizz can do something more interesting with the what remains on the horde further down the line, and boost other horde elements and assets.
I think the city and civilization of the high elves is alliance as is the civilization of the night elves represented in Suramar… they may not be aligned to the alliance, but they are alliance themed and based, sitting on the horde… I know you understand this, don’t play dumb just cos you don’t like it.
You also realise so do the humans, draenei, gnomes and dwarves, the gilneans, Alteraaci, Arathi, Dalaran, they all predate the alliance too.
But why does that not make any human race and civilziation or elven race and civilization any less alliance???
Why?
Might it because the alliance is based on exactly that model that is defined by the night elven civilization, it’s High elven off shoot and it’s human offspring? With the dwarves and draenei being comparable versions on a similar line and plane.
This is what the alliance is modelled upon. So if you take the nation of Alteraac to the horde or the high elves to the horde, regardless of what you name them, if you don’t change everything about them, you simply have humans and elves, alliance races on the horde. An alliance influence on a non-alliance faction.
This is what you get hun.
Everything that the high elves, night elves, humans, dwarves are built upon is what the alliance is based on.
Quel’thalas, Suramar are the finest visualisations of such things, they are unchanged in architecture, character and their citizens are portrayed in exactly the same way - which is all alliance based - leaving the lesser developed humans on the alliance, and the remnant of night elves and high elves, homeless on the alliance they’ve always been on, while their home of origins are with their kin who are signed up to the horde but in effect are essentially high elves with minor differences and night elven Highborne with minor superficial cosmetic differences on their models.
A lot of people are talking about Lore or aesthetics and i don’t think any of that will ever change the tides again towards the alliance side.
My personal opinion on the matter which too is subjective is that the alliance is very dull and boring it has every living stereotype of “good band fantasy races that lack any kind of identity”
Aside of that, it’s the practical matter the game is so much more easier for the horde due to how many more players are there. It’s easier to form groups, to queue for things to find guilds to quest. Even if by all metrics the alliance had better racials why would i want to give up this kind of access and activity?
Unless blizzard does something so stupid and broken on the alliance side that gives a huge advantage i don’t see the alliance ever being any relevant.
Funny enough i do play on Argent dawn and the alliance to horde ratio here is 5:1 so despite all the chatter in this thread my gaming experience is that the alliance are more than us hah
In case you hadn’t got my point there, no, it isn’t already popular enough, and the classic realms do not show that, in the slightest. They show why the Blood Elves being Horde was a sensible move, numerically.
Why would they want to though? That is what I keep asking. Why would they go “Right, that’s enough remembering of our dead, time to go and join the people who are our enemies and have tried to do us over quite a few times now, with War Criminals and Sectarian Violent fanatics in it.”
The High Elven story pretty much -is- the Blood Elf story. They are what the vast, vast majority of the species call themselves now. That is where their story has taken them.
It is selfish and lore unfriendly though. The Horde is not Alliance dominant, because the Blood Elves and Nightborne are not Alliance races. That is pretty straightforward.
It is a pretty good definition of selfish when you are talking about the loss of Blood Elf and Nightborne stuff with -no real compensation-. Where do you get the idea that your suggestions would be palatable? I love my Zanda boy and Darkspear troll, but the Horde has hit Troll Saturation point now. Why is throwing more Trolls at the Horde in return for taking away Horde stuff somehow a fair trade?
Let’s look at this objectively.
Horde has.
Orcs: Two types.
Trolls: Two types.
Tauren: Two types.
Elves: Two types.
Goblins: One type (arguably the Vulpera could be seen as the non-selfish version of Goblins)
Undead : One type.
Pandaren: One type.
Now the Alliance:
Humans: Two Types.
Elves: Two Types,
Draenei: Two Types
Dwarves: Two Types
Gnomes: Two Types
Worgen: One type.
Pandaren: One type.
Your solution is to give the Alliance -Four- Types of Elves.
Seriously? -That- is your solution?
Lets go further still, there are plenty of High Elf fanatics out there who wouldn’t even be happy with your solution but would want High Elves as Separate from Blood Elves, Sooo…Five types of Elves then on Alliance?
Don’t you think two is enough? Do you have to have -all- the Elven stuff, when some of it never belonged to the Alliance in the first place?
Or a person who actually understands the Horde ethos and enjoys how the Elves fit into it, as they do, whilst also liking the more brutal races in the Horde at the same time. Funny thing is, I actually have characters on Horde that -almost- exactly tally with their number of races. I have an Orc, and a Mag’har Orc, I have a Darkspear, and I have a Zandalari, I have a normal Tauren (But do not have a HMT, despite unlocking them, as I have no character concept for one) I have a Goblin, I have a Forsaken, and I have a Nightborne, and a Blood Elf.
So you’re kind of amusingly wrong there
That is correct, who after the hideous events of the Scourge invasion renamed themselves Blood Elves.
Ironically, Silvermoon as it stands now, is a purely Blood Elf city. Know why? Because the original was razed. Silvermoon was rebuilt with magic, by Blood Elf Magisters. Not bricks and mortar, so no, that isn’t actually a High Elven city. It was Built by Blood Elven Magisters. The lands belong to the state, so that is Quel’thalas, so Blood Elves again, and the High Elf mindset as we see several times in game, on both sides, means being intellectual, haughty, pragmatic yet mercurial, vengeful, and always self serving. Thats both High and Blood Elves by the way.
Pretty sure they had Light as their faith for quite some time before humans even existed as a species as opposed to Vrykul offshoots. Order is a concept they will already have had. Nobility is their birthright, hence their original name of Quel’dorei many, many, many years before they met humans, Arcane Magic, well yes, that is why they got Exiled in the first place from Kalimdor, that was kind of the -point- of it, the concept of city living had been one they were familiar with for tens of thousands of years I mean Suramar was domed off from the world for longer than the Human race existed, and we know Lor’themar’s family can track their roots back to Zin-Aszhari, so these are not native concepts to the Alliance, because as I keep reminding you, there was no Alliance at this point in time. There was not even the Human Species!
So all of those things you list, were purely Elven achievements they had developed on their own, without the Alliance, which would not come to exist for another Seven thousand and more years after they arrived in Eastern Kingdoms.
Nope, I get the feeling that I am playing a character of an ancient race that predates the cities of mankind.
Because that is the -lore-.
Why? They have one. What worldbreaking ideas do you have to make this new one different, or are you just trying to throw crumbs to hide the fact you are pinching stuff from the Horde?
Do you…seriously, do you even play Horde? Have you ever like levelled a Horde character? You must have, surely. Did you not notice that everything you mention there already exists, so you are just talking about taking away and giving nothing back. Seriously, you must have made a Horde character at some point, right? You must have seen that everything you mention there is already in game?
The High Elves and Nightborne don’t belong to the Alliance. 10% of the surviving High Elves (Probably less now) are in refuge with the Alliance. 90% of them call themselves Blood Elves and are an integral part of the Horde, the Nightborne however, have never been Alliance, are you sure you are not confusing them with the Night Elves, who -are- an Alliance race, although only since the events of WC3.
On the contrary, I vastly enjoy my Mag’har Orc, Karnakh Battlesmite. I just don’t see why he would segregate himself from his Orcish kin of Azeroth, after having just made so many friends here.
Umm…There are no Alliance based Blood Elves or Nightborne, There are Horde ones.
You’ve got to get that into your head. You keeping on saying they are Alliance based, does not mean that the entire lore is re-written to suit your ideas.
Who was asking for that? I wasn’t. I was happy with the Blood Elven and Nightborne stuff. High Elves aren’t playable as an Alliance race, and Night Elves are all ready an Alliance race.
No I think …In fact i do declare I remember -specifically- stating what appealed to me about Blood Elves, and that was that they were not Tolkien clones, but were actually Elves doing Elf things, so you wouldn’t be pulling me back to the Alliance at all. Heck no, you’d be doing the opposite. You’d be making me loathe and despise the Alliance, and probably have a pretty negative view of their playerbase. Essentially you’d remove my desire to play both Factions simultaneously, one because they had removed an interesting feature from it, and the other because I would not want to be associated with the sort of people who played it.
I think I would pull the yellow and black handle instead, and I know I am not alone in that, by a long chalk.
You think you’d get those Blood Elf players?
Heck no. You’d get their disgust, you wouldn’t get their numbers.
Ultimately, it’d just drop numbers of subs.
Not sure what your aim is at this point, to make the Alliance more popular by cutting sub numbers, but you’re really not going to draw more people to play Alliance, by simply antagonising the Horde. How is that supposed to work?
Do you think all those people playing Blood Elves are suddenly going to come flocking to the Alliance? Because I got to tell you, that isn’t what would happen. You’d get a few. Many would just unsub, some would concentrate on their other Horde characters, but of those who did remain, they would have an absolute healthy disdain for people who main Alliance. It would -destroy- Alliance credibility as a faction, and render it impossible to feel any faction pride. You’d probably actually still see people leaving Alliance, as it would become -embarrassing- to do so. Who wants to play a Faction where you know any Horde player can just label you as playing the game on Easy Mode, and being the Charity faction, when you would know in your heart of hearts, that they were -justified- in doing so. As much as I love my Alliance characters, it would just destroy the game. They would have taken away Horde elements, and they would have taken away any Pride I felt in the Alliance.
Awful, awful outcome, and incredibly destructive to both factions.
Half the Alliance isn’t on the Horde though. Blood Elves are, but they are a Horde race, and Night Elves are actually on Alliance already. Are you sure you are not confusing them with Nightborne, who are a Horde race?
No, I think if you had -actually- read what I said, it was that far from being a ‘Beautiful Goblin Island’ as you put it (Which it never was even in its heyday, it was an industrialised hellhole!) it is in fact an uninhabitable blasted rock, and that is -Assuming- that it has not entirely sank beneath the waves after the massive central volcano went boom because of Deathwing. Why would Goblins get two Cities? What other playable race has two Cities just for themselves? (I know Humans -used- to, But Garrosh sorted that problem out).
There is no Alliance based group of Blood Elves, and the Kaldorei are already Alliance. Do I need to keep repeating this -every- post?
You seem to be awful keen to try and link the avatar that I post from, to somehow thinking I don’t like the other Horde races, or Alliance races for that matter. Would it confuse you less if I posted from one of my Orcs, Tauren, Pandaren, Goblins, Gnomes, Trolls, Humans, Draenei, Void Elves Kul Tirans, Forsaken, Kaldorei or something? I mean I could do that? I just happen to keep this avatar for consistencies sake. But sure, I can post on one of my other Horde races and make exactly the same points I am making here, or I can post on my Human female Warrior, or Gnome Rogue and make exactly the same points I am making here? Or a plethora of characters on either faction, would that make my words somehow more valid, as then you would be unable to claim that I don’t like the other Horde races?
I think those are already in the Alliance, aren’t they? Lemme check…Yep, Void elves, Kaldorei, Humans, all Alliance.
Just a lore correction there. Orcs aren’t native to Azeroth. Nor is the Horde as a body politic, so either way, that statement is incorrect.
When did humans come into this again? Who was saying anything about humans? Humans kind of founded the Alliance, makes perfect sense they would be in it. Later on Night Elves joined the Alliance, which OK, makes slightly less sense given their history, but fair enough. Then the Void Elves, which, well lets be honest, the Alliance should detest with an unspeakable passion, but for some reason don’t.
Thankfully the Horde retained it’s Elven races and assets.
There are no Alliance Blood Elves. There are only Horde Blood Elves.
Again, rather amusingly wrong, as you actually see from the cutscene when you very first meet Thalyssra during Legion, the Shal’dorei have actually underwent a physical change, a slight one, but a noticeable one, enough for Thalyssra to look down at her own appearance and use the words “We changed”. So nope, No Night Elven Nightborne in the Horde either. Just Nightborne.
Makes no sense. As much as it may offend some sensibilities, the Sin’dorei are the dominant strain of the Thalassian species, comprising 90% (if not more by now) of the Species. Their Culture -IS- Thalassian Culture, a fact that is noted in Legion, the fact that the ‘High Elves’ of the Alliance are actually debasing their culture and shifting away from it. Also Shal’dorei culture, is Shal’dorei culture, not Kaldorei culture.
That simply is not true. There are three posters in this thread who agree with you, and two of them have a very chequered posting history, and one some incredibly unpleasant RL views, but sure, align yourself with such types.
I’m going to repeat this, because I feel like I am going around in circles here. RIght. There are No Alliance type Blood Elves or Nightborne? Got it? Do you get that now?
Once more, with feeling “You Can’t Return to Somewhere You Never Belonged To!”
Such as? I asked for good examples, you rattled off a list of Tribes that hate the Horde and would bring absolutely nothing to it, a duplicate set of an existing species, and then suggesting cities on islands you can’t live on.
Come on, what are the good examples?
Tells me that I am clearly more enigmatic and mysterious than I thought, because me saying rather transparently several times that I -do- like those races, that somehow this fact has remained obfsucated from you means that I should start up a new career as an International Man of Mystery, who can say things in plain words, yet nobody knows him…
Ermm…As someone who knows language quite well, can I just stop you there. ‘Bias’ is not a Synonym of ‘Myth’, That isn’t what the word means, or is even similar to. Now if you were to say ‘Myth and Legend are synonymous’ then you would be correct, however ‘Bias’ and ‘Myth’ are not synonymous.
I have no desire or need to come back in 5 years, assuming I am still playing I will still know what a Synonym is. I mean I knew what the word meant more than thirty years ago, why am I going to forget it in five? Barring some unfortunate cognitive degeneration, of course.
of which 90% of the existing species call themselves Blood Elves and still live there…
That was isolated for ten thousand years during which its people diverged, lets get the facts right here…
Yeah, that’s right. They’re not being fair. Sorry, how many times do I have to repeat the Lore?
Yeah, the very, very tiny few that ask for this are indeed, not being fair. Also you know it would be impossible to return these assets don’t you? Because of what the word ‘return’ means.
You can’t have something ‘Returned’ to you, if it never belonged to you in the first place.
Yeah. Thats it. You get it. There are unfair demands being made, that make no lore sense, and people are telling you that those demands are unfair and make no lore sense. That is in a nutshell, exactly what is happening here.
Where is this 'Twice as much stuff ‘from’ Horde races then? You just keep on about more races of Trolls, and Kezan, which lorewise is impossible, and two Orc cities, and about four types of Trolls, and just assuming that Horde players actually -WANT- this stuff!
We’ve got two types of almost everything, same as the Alliance does, so yeah, when you want to take away some of our stuff so that you can have four types of stuff, that is being unfair, damned right it is.
You can have Alliance themed Blood Elves and Nightborne.
Good luck finding them
All the Blood Elves and Nightborne we have are Horde Themed you see…
But sure, if you find any Alliance Themed Blood Elves or Nightborne, you’re welcome to them.
You just won’t find any in Quel’thalas or Suramar, basically…
@Mirianea - while the horde elf fans are busy arguing in denial over an obvious solution that will fix the problem, because they don’t like the idea of losing the high elf and night elf stuff… I would like to note that another way they could have solved the issue was switch the format of Warcraft to make it necessary for players to play both factions anyway.
While you could choose where you resided mainly, you had to play both, like in the RTS - this, like removing the factions or expanding them or opening players from both factions have all been rejected by blizzard in the name of sticking to the core of what Warcraft represents. Which is the two factions of horde and alliance.
Yet this is the very core they are compromising by allowing the very alliance based blood elves and Nightborne to continue on the horde like that.
The horde is popular for a host of reasons, including social reasons, but those reasons stem from the playerbase not viewing the alliance as worthwhile or decent enough - a very similar problem the horde was in during the original classic from 2004-2006 a problem they resolved by introducing an alliance race to the horde. To build up the image of the horde and it’s popularity.
Exactly the same needs to be done, the popularity and the image of the alliance need building up to attract players back, and the nothing excites and invigorates the alliance like the elves they’ve missed and long for. Alliance players talk more, request more changes for, and demand more for high elves and night elves than any other alliance race - the reason for requesting high elves and the problems with Nightborne all stem from them being alliance races and groups that are given unfairly tot he horde.
Such that the best portions of the alliance are on the horde - reducing the appeal of the alliance itself, and actually giving the horde both alliance and horde components, of which their alliance components are much better than all the alliance ones.
If blood elves and nightborne are on the horde, why do they have the best portions of the high elves and the night elves? Such a state only serves to continuously draw alliance players over as they see all the aspects of the alliance they are attracted to exist on the horde in a nicer state through the high elf civilization and the night elf civilization.
This must end and reverse. Let the blood elves of Quel’thalas return to being high elves and bring Silvermoon and Quel’thalas with them and the Nightborne of Suramar get to be restored to night elves through the Arcan’dor process that is still working in them, causing their allegiance to shift back to the alliance especially after the horrors the horde has committed in BFA.
This would put the most attractive aspects of the alliance back on the alliance, rather than on the horde, leaving the remaining blood elves who didn’t return to high elves and the Nightborne who rejected the transformation /magically stalled it, to remain on the horde and become something else, develop a new civilization different from what is identifiable as alliance, allowing the horde to be purer and the alliance to be shone best on the alliance for a change…
It doesn’t matter how it happens in the lore, just as long as it does happen.
how can you ask keep talking about maintaining the core of warcraft, when you refuse to remove the alliance races on the horde??? You can’t keep blood elves and Nightborne on the horde in their current form and strength, it’s 100% alliance high elven and night elven civilization which are alliance based, no, if you want to maintain the core of warcraft, you must have the high elves and night elves be entirely on the alliance in all their fullness. Whiles the blood elves and Nightborne will remain playable on the horde, you can develop them into something else, give them new architecture, new lands, and new features that people can customise too.
they will still have their high elf appearance with the green glowy eyes, and their nightborne appearance, but they will also have new features that match whatever they are developed too, that makes them more distinct from the high elves on the alliance, and the night elves - and this I believe will work very very well.
It’s a good point. they boosted the image of the horde significantly and kept it going there, to where it is today.
Despite everything there are still enough players interested in the lore and aesthetics to make a difference.
The game doesn’t need half the horde switching over, it just needs enough making the alliance their home and proud of it from moving from the horde.
And the way to do this is the elves. They are the portion on the horde that doesn’t fit, so that makes sense, but they are also the portion of the horde that is very alliance and the alliance is most interested in because it’s alliance based.
If they moved back to the alliance, those players will move with them, if those players get excited about playing the alliance because the high elves and night elves are relevant and powerful in the lore and presentation have the cool factor, they will populate the alliance again and bring the parity.
the answer has always been in the image and presentation. This is how the horde got to where it was, they consistently every single time gave the coolest things tot he horde, even the night elf subrace, the hallmark of legion, Suramar went horde, because horde had to have the coolest things - off course people will keep going there, off course they won’t consider the alliance if the best things about the alliance are on the horde, - the best night elven presentation and improvements go horde, and you keep the high elves larger on the horde than the alliance.
it’s broken, these things matter to enough people to make the difference.
You have to understand who likes playing the alliance and why, and how popularity can influence things.
they don’t need to prefer the alliance for the same extended 14 year period they did for the horde, but they do need to make it shine bright right now, and at least for the next 2 expansions in a way that would make people want to swap to it.
A way that would generate excitement for it, and want people rolling characters on the alliance.
Refusing to do this, shows and tells me they have no interest in improving the alliance because they prefer the horde having this complete dominance in the story and presentation, and just find it annoying that they have to balance the alliance side. But are unwilling to do that, because they have no interest.
Developers should not be biased… but these ones are, because they are refusing to do what should be a simple and straightforward move to boost a faction that is key to the running and survival of their game. They are more interested in promoting the side they love rather than actually loving the whole project and ensuring that it is good both ways .
Whether you agree with it or not, all the elves are alliance types. If blizzard had given the horde playable San’layn or naga elves in the character of the naga - I would not be making this statement.
however blood elves, nightborne are very much in the cast of high elves and night elves. This is not a mistake either, you just don’t seem to accept that blizzard’s intention was to give the horde an alliance race, even though the evidence is right in front of you.
maybe you’re in denial because to accept this would mean you have to acknowledge the argument.
While blizzard are free to add any number of human, elf or draenei sub races tot he horde, or add horde subraces from orcs and trolls to the alliance if they want, it doesn’t stop it from being what it is. homogenising of the factions.
It doesn’t stop the blood elves and nightborne as they are being exactly what I have said they are, bringing the alliance to the horde and better versions of the alliance races (including a better presentation of both high elves and night elves than the existing high elf, void elf and night elves (incl Highborne) are shown on the alliance itself.
It also is a bad thing that compromises the faction balance because you are de-incentivising reasons for picking the alliance by having such a strong and good version of them on the horde in addition for to the horde races.
You never thought of this from an alliance perspective or a true horde fan perspective, and it’s part of the flaw in your approach here. People who love the alliance mould/type of races/set up theme, come on, then see that the horde races have a better version of that in the blood elves (high elves) and the Nightborne (Highborne night elves) - why stay on the alliance when they can have a better alliance on the horde? (people like you in your bias love this because you can “stick” it to your rivals in typical rival fashion and feel superior - you are not thinking objectively at all, you might have other motivations too, but it is evidenced you are unable to look beyond the very vanity and pride like arrogance that characterises the race you like so much.)
How do you think it looks to those who really like the horde core races, the orcs, tauren , troll, goblin who in Warcraft tradition have always been enemies to alliance types? Now having the alliance on their faction? with blizzard continuously shoving more their way - are we forever to be tethered to half the alliance on our own faction? Can we only exist as half horde and half alliance?
How alliance centric to have the best of the horde given in the blood elves and Nightborne - that was until the Zandalari came. And now the Zandalari show that horde races can be magnificent - why are the alliance high elves and night elves still hanging around?
If the alliance could benefit from having their elves back and bring the excess elf fan crowd that are very alliance with them - it’s win win, the alliance gets more numbers we lose the alliance part of the horde, the game gets better, blizzard focuses on more horde themed developments for the horde rather than high elf and night elf improvements. the game gets balanced.
And the irony is that, the blood elves and Nightborne can still have a role, just as long as it isn’t a high elven or night elven one, seeing these are very alliance focused.
Most pvp players play Horde for the racials so if they would move the races to Alliance, more people would switch to get acces to get races/racials and therefore the Alliance would get more popular
The Horde committed atrocities as a result of a single mad(wo)man and a few other misguided souls, rather than the entirety of the Horde being horrible creatures.
The Alliance still keeps the Ironforge dwarves who were partially responsible for Kael’thas’ attempted murder, as well as being active instigators and aiding Night Elven spies in Eversong Woods, who allegedly sabotaged Arcane Sanctums that were built to gather magic energies which the Blood Elves could use to sate their addiction, even if just for a little bit, aka, fairly instrumental for them to “survive” and retake their lands from the remnant of the scourge and amani trolls running amok in the midst of the High Elves’ darkest hour.
The Alliance basically looked down at the thalassian elves gasping for hair, reaching out to get some help, only for the Alliance to lift their heavy, plated boot and step on the thalassian elves’ chest.
And why do you keep going with this ridicolous notion?
Why do you believe the elves are ‘Alliance’?
They never truly were in past Warcraft games, they used the Alliance and discarded it just as easily afterwards. The elves were never interested in prolonged relations with the Alliance, exceptin’ a few minorities.
The only reason this changes now is because of a faction-based game. In any other kind of media, the elves would have been neutrals the moment they could stand by themselves. Never caring much for the outside world provided it’d never hurt them in their own lands.
People seem to largely misunderstand elves in the Warcraft universe, still thinking that Warcraft is an extension of Lord of the Rings.
That’s really irrelevant… seriously, if you can invent reasons for high elves to join the horde including trolls and undead that are not only vastly different form thembut have tried to annihilate them time and time again, I somehow don’t think in game events is any serious obstacle for them returning.
In fact, the way the lore has gone, it makes more sense for them to return than remain.
Radicicolous notion? Posting on your troll toon doesn’t change it from being what it is. The fact is, having blood elves and Nightborne on the horde is having the alliance on the horde. Alliance culture, alliance race, alliance nature, alliance civilization, alliance way of thinking… it is not a ridiculous notion and you well know it.
blood elves and nightborne remain vastly different from orcs/trolls/tauren/goblins etc, and are exactly like high elves, night elves, Highborne night elves, void elves, and far closer to humans, draenei, dwarves than any of those races.
if blizzard had gone with Pandaren, Naga, San’layn or Venthyr types, I would not have been able to make that observation, nor would it have been true, but they went with high elves and Highborne night elves under the name of blood elves and Nightborne.
It is what it is, denying it, telling yourself it isn’t, won’t change it. You are picking up a high elf on the horde and it is an alliance race there. It doesn’t really belong to the original horde, and what it is is having the alliance on the horde.
you can never expect the alliance to be popular or desirable as long as the best parts of it are on the horde. It is also quite clear that these elves are what the alliance faction players treasure and care about the most, you’re not going to make that much of an impact keeping high elves and Highborne night elves on the horde and instead boosting other alliance races people don’t care that much about.
you must ask yourself why you are so willing to or stubborn to keep such alliance elements on the horde - really what’s the logic…? the horde actually doesn’t need them… sure they need the models - but that can be achieved by just a remnant npc group of blood elves and nightborne remaining loyal, they don’t need the whole civilization, and they don’t need the high elves or night elven kingdom/civilizations - the best versions of the alliance on them… they really don’t.
They’d be better off replacing them with Troll, orc, tauren, goblin assets, and turning the blood elves and Nightborne into something different from the high elf and Highborne night elf character and civilizations they have been, so that whatever they become has nothing to do with the high elves or the kaldorei civilization but instead is a new culture, a new society, with new architecture and new civilization - different, unique and not alliance.
When they do that, they will stop bleeding alliance players to the horde, providing they keep the alliance cool, and make those elements shine, rather than the way they kept nerfing them for 14 years.
Make the night elves as great as they were in the lore in the height of their empire (they don’t need to be that big, but they need to be that impressive) restore the high elves to how they were at the height of the Thalassian kingdom, make the void elves powerful and effective, turn the draenei from refugees to established new civilization, etc, let them be on the rise again rather than naff… and you’d get people attracted tot them again.
And this time you don’t need to nerf the horde, you actually just need to raise the alliance. I would have interesting scenarios and situations, the things alliance really enjoy restored to them… it’s just silly to think that this is okay having these alliance elements like high elves and night elven Highborne types on the horde and expecting the alliance to be popular or desirable…
i mean seriously, you give the best of what the alliance entails on the horde, and you wonder why the horde is more popular hands down and keeps drawing more people. sure racials and social contribute, but the heart of the matter is alliance ain’t cool, and the horde offers everything it does and more… and the reason is simple, you have the best of the alliance on the horde. Take it away, back to the alliance, and more people will want to play the alliance.
At least half of the horde elf crowd will. The horde won’t lose playable blood elves, or nightborne, so it won’t lose all its elf crowd, but if it loses its high elven and night elven civilizations to the alliance, it will draw some of those players back and it would also stimulate and inspire current alliance players to play it more.
I had a go on one of my alliance chars last night and the warmode bonus is now almost even with the horde so I guess alliance have become more popular now anyway
It isn’t, but the fact you so readily think so, just shows how important and influential they are to the alliance - if you want to boost alliance numbers and popularity, you’re looking at one of the most obvious avenues.
It’s more the fact that I only read the OP and the last few replies, and the last few were just about that. But thanks for putting words into my mouth, Kalibas.
People often say the appearance of Blood elfs made the horde domination once TBC hit the field, while it is surely true to some extend I think giving the paladin class to the horde has been the real turning point.
More than the bloodelves, Paladin was the essential missing piece to make the horde greater than the alliance.
Then about the Lore I think the alliance lacks of real heroes and badass NPCs liked to the faction. We saw Blizzrd try to create some in BFA but imo they’ve been quite a failure so far.
