Well 12 is obviously not for majority of players so this doesnt make any sens. If I use your words “that’s stupid”.
Any class in hand of bad player is an F. Still some underperform even in good hands, that’s the issue I am talking about. Not all class are equals that’s fine, but if you bring the most utility comon sens would say you should not also be the best DPS. Atleast it could be acceptable if all DPS were closer and some bring more utility. The real diff would be at the highest key.
Now lets be real if you do 12 would you invite a war arm/fury ? ( havnt seen since last patch btw might be okay but doubt), a monk ww ? A spriest, Hpriest ? A mage arcane/fire ? even frost is meh, A feral druid ? A devoker ? A hunt ? It feels dumb just having to explain it, I cant imagine how it feels to think it is normal.
Also I dont believe because something/someone has failed something too many times in the past is a reason for accepting it.
So think further? Who do you balance the game for? The majority or minority? The +12 is NOT for the majority yet every spec can do a +12 in time. So what does this say?
Define underperforming. Are you solely speaking about dps? I had +10 runs not timed because people were simply… well… not playing their class right. Today I was able to super easily time +10 with a friend who was on his 580 boomkin. Just his solar beam alone made the run like 10 times easier than some people smashing their faces against their keyboard on S tier specs.
His damage was garbanzo but his utility was more than just helpful. I think this was the best run I had in the entire week actually. I honestly didn’t expect that myself.
I assume you are talking about enhancer? Yes, spec is surely outstanding. But this one spec doesn’t mean the entire balance is bad. Shaman’s kit is just more than good for the current dungeon design. I think everyone knows.
Depends on the dungeon but yes, I would, especially if I knew the player is good.
Idk I barely see any tbh.
Spriest is actually good. Holy Priest I’d probably pass, unless, again, I know the player is good enough to handle the spec.
Wdym meh? I had a 617 ilvl frost mage today doing 1,7 mil overall. Like… that’s omega good in my book. Got int buff, can decurse, has range interrupt, blood lust… I mean… it’s good.
Feral druid is too hard for most people but the spec itself is not bad. It’s not a ret pala but it’s good.
What’s wrong with hunters? I am playing with 2 friends, ret pala and SV hunt. Especially at season start having a hunter was very good for me. He is VERY durable, has GREAT utility and very good damage. He was top dps in like 95% of all our dungeons while playing all mechanics.
I am not saying the balance is perfect but I’ve seen players performing just fine on all specs. Except for WW monks maybe since I remember like playing with only 2 or something.
If you think so many specs are bad, which specs do you think are viable? All Shaman specs, Aug Evoker, Disc, Prot war+pal, Guardian and Frost DK? That’s it? Do you truly think everything else is unplayable?
Again this is non sens to me. It is like rsham at the start of the season, if it is 100 times easier with a class to do the harder content that is no well designed. Looks simple.
Underperforming are class that even in good hands cant do as much as others that are less experienced than them ?
And S tier class stuck at 10 should not be used as exemple to me.
I am talking about enh as an exemple but I used all underperforming class below. For frost mage check Milkmage logs, he has between 1.7m to 2m as best DPS in all dungeons average is around 1.825m, I am not sure that is as good as you said, maybe you had an evoker, a boomkin and a DH tank ? So all planet were aligned for him or atleast 2 of the list.
For the other class I listed if you think they are good you should try them. Do atleast some +10 with each and comeback saying everything is fine. Spoiler you will not get invite and you will not bring much to the group but dont take my words go try yourself please .
So, ignore the 99.9% that actually pay the bills and keep the servers running, because they don´t need balance or to enjoy the game… Doesn´t matter if all the specs are F tier for the masses, as long as the .1% are still having fun.
And something tells me that when you´re doing dps because Gingi switched to boomie and just blasts and they balanced around his performance, you´ll be the first person on here screaming for buffs…
No, nny game designer that balances like this in 2024 (in 1999 it was still considered acceptable) absolutely deserves to suffer watching their game die the horrific and slow death they set it up for.
It doesnt. I could play a Mage right now and cause the key to brick and it most certainly isnt the class thats the reason. Reason for that: I know jackpoop about playing a mage. Can do the same with an Enha or DK for all I care and the result would be the same and either the key bricks or people have to make up for me.
The specs arent F tier though. I mean the playerbase is just doing “monkey sees, monkey does” (which also explains why Disc priest is rising now, because they’ve seen the pros doing it). I remember people that said, and it were a lot, that “assa was trash, its a dead spec” at the start of the expansion (that was despite it being borderline broken on PTR. But it didnt get as much shine this time around with the beta test being barred behind a paywall because someone was really [redacted] ).
The main issue lies with pugs only wanting “meta” specs and refuse to invite anything else. Or Bloodlust (because drums are horsepoop). And the Meta will always exist even if the difference is like 1-5% (we already had that in the past. And not just in this game).
You dont understand the meaning. You balance your class around the best performers to make sûre everyone is able to reach the same thing. (Lets random say X dps. Every class should be able to reach X so you use the best performers as an exemple).
You mistaken with balancing the GAME around them am I right ?
Just in case it wasn´t clear, I was critiquing the quoted poster´s misguided perception of balance, not current game balance. That the community as a whole is a horde of muppets that see a tier list and turn off their brains is well established
No. The simple fact is that if If you balance around the 1% that play the game professionally, the specs will more often than not become useless for the 99%.
And soon nobody else wil play the game but the 1%, because it will be “too complicated” for everyone else. Countless games have proved this over the last, jeez how long have I been doing this, 35+ years… Nobody, without exception, that designed their game around progamers still has a game to sell Most of the studios that made this mistake sare closed, though admittedly not generally on teh back of that one mistake…
The sole example that comes to mind of a game that was hilariously hard (though because realism, not so much becaus eit was complicated) and still achieved some modicum of long term success would be Operation :Flashpoint, and that was nerfed so hard over the first 3 months of commercial availability that it didn´t even resemble the original release less than 6 months later.
Furthermore, specific to WoW: easily 90% of the people copy-pasting top tier builds are already not using half their buttons properly… if you tune arounf teh 1%, so that they HAVE to use their buttons correctly and at the right time to perform, average player performans will go down like an anvil in a septic tank.
And when nobody can clear +5s or nhc raid because Gingi is the balance standard, then the game dies.
What I say is simplier than what you understand. Read again with empty mind. I never said they should dictate the game I said they should be used as proof exemple to balance the classes.
I fear You are either not understanding what I am saying, or you not reading it properly.
Because exactly this has been tried, and failed, countless times.
Furthermore, because the 2 are far from as dissociated as you seem to believe…you cannot balance classes without balancing the game itself around that resulting class balance.
Because that class balance will ultimately determine things like total raidDPS. And if you ignore it, there 2 possible outcomes:
not even RWF guilds can clear the raid in a reasonable timeframe because everything is overtuned.
See also Sepulcherof the First ones, ironically the last raid where the devs admit that they DID design and balance the raid with RWF guilds in mind, much to the chagrin of literally everyone else, including most CE and even HoF guilds. This is the “we balance around the performance of the top 1%” situation, the 99% can´t kill it.
the content is so easy that it presents no challenge for anyone because nobody bothered to cross check numbers.
Neither of these is healthy for the game itself, Emerald Nightmare being the shining example of what happens when things are too easy.
There´s actually a third, that you get really superlucky and hit the balance just right… Yeah, not going to hold my breath on that one…
I understand what you think you´re proposing, but I also keenly understand that that only works in a vacuum where neither the rest of the party nor the rest of the game exist. It´s a great way to balnce classes in pre production before you have environments for those classes to run around in (Kind of a stupid way to build the pipeline, but to each dev their own), but goes completely out the window as soon as the rest of the game starts to take shape and these things have to coexist in teh same virtual space
That’s the thing tho. Rshaman was never easy. I have no idea where people got this from. Literally every single Rshaman from pugs I had was bad. VERY bad.
You think it’s “easy” when you let people die and have to drink every few pulls?
It takes quie a bit to make the shaman good, it’s not automatically good. Rshaman is one of the best examples how an S tier spec is absolute garbage in the hands of an average player.
Well and this is not happening. An experienced player will outperform S tier fotm rerollers. Look, you thought hunter is bad, yet my mate (who is not even thaaaat good) outdamaged 99% of all DKs and Enhancement Shamans we had.
Literally the first dungeon I check is him outdamaging an enhancement Shaman who has 2 ilvls more than the mage.
Meanwhile he is not pullin good logs btw. When he does (97%) he is first by far. When he pulls 59% logs, he does even less than Devoker.
Now here is context missing. Idk how he played and idk if the tank pulled well but this example means absolutely nothing, especially when the mage is pulling bad logs.
I am playing mainly healers. My friends play dps and I see more than enough dps players while gearing my healers. That’s why I say what I say.
Not being invited to the group is not evidence of the class being bad but players being stupid. I mean look at you, you think SV hunter is bad because you want tryhard meta it seems? Yet my friend was doing 2mil overall dps on SV and playing mechanics while providing a good kit. He also got invited to +11 when most people were pushing for this. And also did them in time.
People need to stop sweating like their life is on the line. Most classes can do much higher keys than they are doing but people are blindly following metas which they not only don’t understand, they also can’t execute the plays.
If I understand you do 10 and 11 and see 12 as YOUR end goal. And talk about YOUR experience.
Now if you were trying higher you would understand. My advice since my own words doesnt work is try to get knowledge from streamers and top player community they are relatable.
Nope. I am just happened to have +11 cleared.
The stats tell us that the majority is playing <12.
I fully understand, that’s the thing. It just doesn’t change the fact that every single spec can do +12 in time. Now look at the stats and see for yourself, how many players are doing higher than +12.
After you figured this out, try to understand how many people (take it as %) are affected by the so called “balance issue”.
Then ask yourself: Do you balance for the majority or for the minority?
And my advice to you: Stop trying to copy streamers and top players.
This is exactly what is ruining the pug life and high keys. You don’t need to copy the meta from +17 and apply it to +12 or low keys. Speaking of knowledge, that’s the kind of knowledge people should try to get. Not crying about balance and trying to form groups with meta specs, not understanding what even makes them meta
There been always specs that are easy to play, like Ret, Warrior, DK etc…
A Ret doesn’t bring 3% more dmg and healing to the party, you do. Ret can’t dispel curses but you do. Or looking at this week’s affix, you can do the entire affix by yourself, every single time and reliably. Ret can’t. You can root single adds or even mass root or vortex. Ret can’t.
Balance it not only about damage.
But I do agree a Feral should be rewarded more for the amount of effort the damage rotation requires. It doesn’t mean Feral is unplayable tho. A good Feral player is always better than some fotm Ret reroller.
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dps because Gingi switched to boomie and just blasts and they balanced around his performance, you´ll be the first person on here screaming for buffs…
that was funny
