Toxic masculinity; sure.
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I’m mean you are right but is there another way?
Do you actually believe that there are people at blizzard that are a. Capable and B. Willing to write a good horde story again.
One where we aren’t the villains.
One where we can have strength without being written as either a British horde of savages or monsters cause we fight dirty?
Be honest with me do you think that will ever happen?
I honestly don’t so I try to salvage what I can.
And I think the players should not be cut from each other because of the conflict. We should be able to do everything together if we want.
If someone wants war outside of BG we have a thing that is literally called WARmode
Toxic masculinity is a load of bollocks. Anybody can be toxic, Garrosh was just an angry and awesome male character.
He had to many bad traits.
He was masculine but he was also toxic masculine.
It’s crazy how many people in discussions about garrosh think him calling sylvanas a b was peak writing and peak masculine behaviour
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Agree to disagree.
He was an ‘interesting’ character, sure. Deeply flawed, stubborn, overly aggressive.
But an ‘awesome male character’? Nah.
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In Warcraft the coolest masculine characters were imo:
Thrall (until WoD, not after Legion), Uther Lightbringer, Tirion Fordring, Varian Wrynn, Sons of Lothar, Grommash Hellscream, Varok Saurfang, Velen, Vindicator Maraad, Voljin, etc.
I have read the books, so I also add Broxigar, but the stuff in call of the ancients is not in any game.
I also hate though how Varok got oneshot by banshee queen ( 
). Blizzard removed the Myth around that character for no good reason. I think I know the reason, it’s just not a good reason. Now Eitrigg seems to have replaced him, but if Blizzard thinks Eitrigg can replace Saurfang, they are delusional.
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Garrosh is just a toxic character, it’s not “toxic masculine”, this ideological non-sense is annoying and very stupid too. Garrosh is toxic in the same way that Sylvanas was toxic, where they held their personal aspirations and ideals above their own people. They lacked empathy and virtues, and had many general vices. Garrosh is not toxic, because he was muscular, rough, or dominant. Syvalanas was not “toxic-feminine”, because she was attractive, aggressive, and manipulative. Men can also have those traits. - Sylvanas was just an angry, vengeful banshee, which is a toxic character, and you know what: Toxic characters are often also popular, because they tend to be unique and interesting. Why try to bring ideology now into this discussion? Nothing is toxic about being masculine or feminine. Being toxic is toxic, end of story.
This is really annoying, that you say how it’s unclear, but somehow you can assign Garrosh to be “toxic-masculine”. Maybe it was actually clear. I think toxic is just toxic, not tied to masculine or feminine. That is more ideological, where people make others feel bad for normal, natural instincts. Like for example being dominant is typically masculine, and it can be good or bad depending on how it’s used. It makes a difference, if Garrosh uses his dominant character for war crimes versus Varian Wrynn using it to create order in Stormwind.
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“Toxic masculinity”…
We hear you : from now on, every characters in all medias available must be nice and politically correct.
Enjoy your bland stories !
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Garrosh started out as a very interesting character, but ended up being very 1-dimensional warmonger, funny enough that’s when some people started fawning all over him, but he wasn’t a good leader and certainly not good for the horde in general.
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He had an progression story at cata him turning less of an hothead.
But they threw that all away when they needed an villain in MoP
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What’s wrong with him being hotheaded. It’s a unique character trait. If he uses that characteristic to do evil, it is what it is. He could have also used it to do good. People who are cold-calculated with less temperament are not better people. Not every character needs to be boring and talk the same way, that reminds of how some corporate manager talks to not get cancelled.
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It made him bad leader, his actions were really impulsive the problem is that they tried to make him actually good leader with cata slowly making him lot more easier to deal with.
Sure if the whole idea was from start that garrosh never could learn to be better it would be fine but why build a progression story and having more complicated person,
To make him go all in about true horde and having that cheesy speech even at end of siege of orgrimmar that was basically c tier comic book villain speech
And this isnt about how the charachter is talking. He could have been good leader who says what he thinks and is really outgoing with it. Having that energy you keep talking about. But instead he turned to be into one dimensional villain
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No, it didn’t. What made him a bad leader was that Garrosh did unethical decisions based on twisted, wrong narratives. Nothing to do with his temperament. He was also manipulated by the Sha. That’s why many characters today in wow have the same personality, because this corporate, cold rationality is idealized too much.
I prefer cheesy comic book language over sanitized, corporate writing, where characters all sound the same and give the vibe like they are forced to talk from an AI generated script.
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It was all about his impulsiveness and temperament that clouded his judgment even before the sha.
And youre twisting words here, im not an advocate for over sanitized corporate writing far from it. Im just pointing out things werent perfect with garrosh how the writing made him to be
Yeah, he was awesome.
To be fair, that hotheadedness is exactly what made his Shadowlands scene so amazing - even to people that hated the Horde. Garrosh did nothing wrong and he stood by his beliefs, even in death. What a masculine legend.
I think it made him a bad leader at times tho.
Best example is his discussion with sylvanas.
He liked having the forsaken cause as a leader he knew what the forsaken where bringing his army in fighting power and work power.
But the second he got reminded of the scourge when the Valkyries raised the new forsaken in silverpine he got triggered from his time on the frozen battlefields of northrend and cause he tends to be a hot head he started attacking her cursing her out and threatening her.
She wasn’t some lowly soldier or worker she was the queen of all forsaken.
That was a bad move as a leader to start beef with a fellow leader someone that is only in the horde cause they needed a place where they don’t get put in the same pot as the scourge
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You do understand that you saying that is just as much ‘ideological’, right? 
So yeah… If you get to call other ideology ‘annoying and very stupid’, guess what I’m going to call yours? 
Oh, so in THIS case using ‘masculinity’ is not okay, but when you use it, it is?
Is that how it works? 
Look… The difference between those terms is this:
From the dictionary:
Masculinity: Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men or boys.
Which is so vague. Can be any number of things and depending on the culture you’re part of it can be vastly different as well.
Now let’s look at the term ‘toxic masculinity’:
A set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.
What those expectations are is still vague, just like in the term masculinity, but the important part is: “regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole”. Which fits Garrosh perfectly.
Now: Using the term here is appropriate from the common knowledge we have of ‘orc males in orc society’. ← That’s key. Orc society in Warcraft is much, much simpler and more easily defined because it’s not an actual society. It’s just a faction in a game and they’re given various 'common traits, values, etc etc.
So yes… It fits.
I’m not calling a real person such a term. And it’s highly unlikely I ever would.
Because real people are much more complex and nuanced than characters in WoW.
Now, lastly I will agree that yes any character can be toxic. Male or female.
But that doesn’t mean that this term doesn’t fit Garrosh in this case; because it very much does.
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does not exsist anymore.
According to…?