Where's the war

Community General Discussion
671

You do understand that you saying that is just as much ‘ideological’, right? :blush:
So yeah… If you get to call other ideology ‘annoying and very stupid’, guess what I’m going to call yours? :kissing_heart:

Oh, so in THIS case using ‘masculinity’ is not okay, but when you use it, it is?
Is that how it works? :sweat_smile:

Look… The difference between those terms is this:

From the dictionary:
Masculinity: Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men or boys.

Which is so vague. Can be any number of things and depending on the culture you’re part of it can be vastly different as well.

Now let’s look at the term ‘toxic masculinity’:

A set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.

What those expectations are is still vague, just like in the term masculinity, but the important part is: “regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole”. Which fits Garrosh perfectly.

Now: Using the term here is appropriate from the common knowledge we have of ‘orc males in orc society’. ← That’s key. Orc society in Warcraft is much, much simpler and more easily defined because it’s not an actual society. It’s just a faction in a game and they’re given various 'common traits, values, etc etc.

So yes… It fits.
I’m not calling a real person such a term. And it’s highly unlikely I ever would.
Because real people are much more complex and nuanced than characters in WoW.

Now, lastly I will agree that yes any character can be toxic. Male or female.
But that doesn’t mean that this term doesn’t fit Garrosh in this case; because it very much does.

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672

does not exsist anymore.

673

According to…?

674

this :))))

675

Toxic masculinity?? Why not toxic personality. Why villanize us men? Tf we do?

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676

The term doesn’t say all men, it says a specific set of men who fall into certain behaviours.

Toxic masculinity refers to a set of harmful and restrictive social norms associated with traditional masculinity, which can negatively impact men and society. It emphasizes dominance, aggression, emotional suppression, and resistance to anything perceived as feminine. This can lead to problems like poor mental health, violence, and strained relationships

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677

Yes, that was a strawman. And victimization.

I’m sure you’ve heard about femi-nzi. That’s a set of traits a feminist have that is oppressionate.
You can’t control what someone else calls you. Trying to disqualify a term is reaching for that control. It won’t work.

Illegitimize talking about it, as if there’s no such thing as toxic masculinity, and then celebrate that behaviour as if it is favorable is dishonest.

Garrosh represent what a man shouldn’t be. A man like Garrosh in our society is gravely dysfunctional. He’s a good fictional character because he gives a parodic example on how not to be. But people sensitive and insecure about their masculinity believe it is a behaviour to take pride in. Try it then, see how far you’ll get. And then go blame someone, like the feminists, for your catastrophically failed life.

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678

Brother it’s not about making men the villain.

It’s about accepting the fact that traits you can typically attribute to masculine behaviour can be turned toxic by people that twist them.

For example strength and the drive for competition is generally seen as a masculine trait.
But that can be toxic if you have people like those gym dude bros who make pumping there while personality and that take everyone physically less fit and strong as lesser persons.
Those guys that would like to take every argument into the arena cause bodily strength is all that matters.

Everything can be turned toxic. The term toxic masculinity isn’t trying to make men look bad it’s simple a categorisation to show wich traits are being use in a toxic way.
For example there is also toxic femininity and toxic feminism and even toxic friendlyness

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679

This topic: “The war of Warcraft”
You be like: What kind of story are we telling?
And I be like: What kind of gameplay are we playing?

680

Yes, you shouldn’t be like Garrosh, but what makes him toxic has nothing inherently to do with his masculinity.

It says that those traits were inherently toxic, which is not true. It usually refers to specific attributes like dominance, aggression, stoicism, etc. Some people, who use this term frequently, view those inherently as problematic. I’d say emotional traits like dominance and aggression can be good, neutral or bad depending on how it’s used and controlled for various reasons. We also see this with wow characters: For example Tirion Fordring is a very virtuous character, but he’s also aggressive. Yet he uses his aggression against the scourge, and can control it generally. On the other hand Garrosh is evil, and he can’t control his aggression. One of the key themes of the Orcs, is that they have almost uncontrollable rage caused by the fel from the curse of mannoroth. Thrall is important in this context, because he is an orc shaman, who has Balance and is one with the spirits of nature, so he can control his aggression, and that’s why Thrall is the perfect leader of the Orcs. This idea of calculated aggression is also a very important part and teaching of almost every martial art.

It’s people, who see the world strictly in stereotypes, and try to act according to it, which isn’t specific to masculine or other identities. Yes, this is inherently bad behaviour. Also done by some women, who excessively act according to the stereotypical role of a woman. Part of being a well-balanced human in my opinion is embracing one’s own individuality, but also see generalizations without feeling like one needs to conform into it necessarily.

Though emotional suppression is not a bad thing inherently. It’s a part of controlling your emotions. It typically becomes toxic, if people always suppress their emotions, but that means, that they can’t control those well. Being able to control your emotions means that one can let them happen, and also suppress them when needed. Self-control is generally virtuous I’d say, not being able to control oneself is bad.

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681

You are right emotional traits can be good or bad.

I think putting the word toxic before something is just the modern way of saying those traits get used for bad behaviour

682

What broduin said!

My take:
The term toxic masculinity gets thrown around far more than any other term. I never hear another form of toxicity, it’s always toxic masculinity. Toxicity has nothing to do with gender.

Just call Garrosh toxic and be done with it. I agree hes toxic. But this is a game after all and evil characters will exist in it otherwise it would be extremely boring.

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683

A good story has interesting characters.

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684

Indeed, a toxic masculine character isn’t new to fantasy or any genre. It’s a game. Garrosh isn’t real, but you can like or dislike the character.

Plenty of WoW players liked and supported Garrosh, just like we had the split with Sylvanas. It’s not real life.

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685

True, Cata Garrosh has a different personality from MoP Garrosh.

686

Important to note “can”. Doesn’t mean it’s always the case.

687

Is Sylvanas the female version of Garrosh? Yes.

Is Sylvanas described as “Toxic Femininity”? No.

Hypocrisy.

688

Why not?
Sylvanas isn’t exactly a role model either.

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689

That’s my point.

690

Garrosh is more of a stereotype than Sylvanas is though.