Which side is morally better?

Community General Discussion
182

Let me fix it for you:

  1. WC3 - Garithos murdering almost whole blood elven population
  2. pre tbc event - sent spies to silvermoon
  3. burned Taurajo
  4. Jaina ruined the attempt of negotiations between blood elves and alliance by committing local genocide of blood elves in dalaran
  5. Alliance assaulting undead camp in stormheim in legion, although they agreed to cooperate with the horde against global threat
  6. bfa1 - sending the fleet to the zandalari home and killing the Rastakhan at the end
  7. bfa2 - thanks to information given by Skullfox murdering of vulperas in vol’duun

The worst crimes were probably 1, 3 and 4

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  1. WC3 - Garithos murdering almost whole blood elven populatio

haem … sources? Arthas did, Garithos just jailed them but they escaped with Vashj and her Nagas help

  1. pre tbc event - sent spies to silvermoon

Because, blood elves was originaly, because of the the traitor prince KT from Ilidan from Kil Jaeden, linked to the burning legion, and before doing an alliance with blood elves who stayed in azeroth, night elves wanted to know if they was linked to the burning legion. That’s normal.

In order to secure their offensive against the [Horde], the Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, razed Camp Taurajo in a massacre

You need to talk about details, not only what you want to manipulate people’s emotions

between point 3 and 4 you forgot

Sunreavers participate with garrosh and goblins to drop a Nuc… Mana Bomb on Theramore, killing many people including high elves.

and :

  1. Jaina ruined the attempt of negotiations between blood elves and alliance by committing local genocide of SUNREAVERS in dalaran

she did the purge after the bomb so its judgement time, thats not a crime ; that’s a legit punishment.

  • Be silenced, Sunreaver!
  • The Kirin Tor will not tolerate insurrection.
  • You brought this on yourselves, Sunreavers.
  • You had your chance to run.
  • Dalaran is a better place without your kind.
  • Did you think your actions would have no consequence?
  • You chose your warchief over the Kirin Tor.

by kind she means Sunreavers, not blood elves because blood elves are quel dorei and quel dorei of silvercovenant helped her to purge sunreavers. So she didnt want to kill Quel dorei / blood elves she wanted to kill sunreavers.

Hah! I see. I will remove the Sunreavers by force, then.

If she wanted to kill blood elves, she just has to enter in Silvermoon with a army of magis and kill them all.

  1. Alliance assaulting undead camp in stormheim in legion, although they agreed to cooperate with the horde against global threat

Undead are not living beings, who cares. You cannot commit a death crime on something is already dead.

about point 6. Its called “war laws” during… a war.

about point 7. Who cares about killings foxxies, they are just animals, like chicken, cows and rats.

Checkmate :chess_pawn:

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He literally says he is going to execute them all by sunrise in that very cutscene. So he wasn’t ‘‘Just jailing them’’ He had also intentionally sent the Blood elves on suicide missions he knew they wouldn’t survive up until that point.

Don’t manipulate peoples emotions.

Do you actually have a source on that? Cause all I can find are fan theories as to why. No actual lore that states thats the reason.

Anyway given the plans and acts of literal sabotage is pretty safe to assume they weren’t there just to keep tabs on the Blood elves.

-Sunreaver- Not Sunreavers… One single rogue Sunreaver that acted on his own and betrayed the Sunreavers in doing so. And jaina purged half the elves of Dalaran over the acts of one rogue Sunreaver.

She acted against her own Kings interests as well.

But yeah.

Your soo cool and edgy. do another one.

185

If in that time there was possibility to build semi neutral friendly relationships between alliance and blood elves via diplomatic actions, night elves could try just to gather that information directly by negotiating and asking questions in the diplomatic talks, but instead they decided to do it via spying while no one was looking

Committing crime without knowing the law is still crime, if tauren actually would plan and attack then northwatch hold could just respond and not striking preemptively without actual knowledge if tauren in that village were or not valid military targets. Also alliance kinda invaded the originally orcish/tauren homelands - South Barrens, i know in cataclysm southern barrens is separate from north but still, the humans had no right to burn Taurajo just because “possible” attack, they were on horde homeland and horde would see it as ok action to defend their territories.

Although Sunreavers were part of horde side expedition in northrend and dalaran, the true cause why the bomb was dropped and the bell is stolen - Garrosh’s bloodthirst. Even blood elves themselves acknowledged that Garrosh was making them to do all that evil stuff. And about bomb, the bomb was actually dropped by goblins from that zeppelin ship and sunreavers only gave them recipe how to craft such bomb.

legit punishment would be probably jailing the lead of sunreavers at max and maybe demote sunreavers for a while from kirin tor decision making and not going rampant on every single sunreaver and killing. Also although sunreavers are not the same as silvermoon factionwise like silvercovenant is not member of the alliance but it is more like the situation “how you treat my friends so will we treat you”. They were the same race and were part of expedition sent from silvermoon as well back in wrath, so that WAS an offence against silvermoon as a whole

Ber ready for vulpera’s wrath on the forums

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Manipulating facts to make the horde outright villains? Sounds familiar

187

Ah yes, Warcrime justifications…

188

probably for that alliance should receive a medal.

189

Na, he has a point, Garrithos trying to execute them because kael’thas disobey orders.
But its unclear if he wasent already under the control of the dreadlord.

It wasn’t even genocided, that jaina killed some was a bug back in the days, Blizzard confirmed it.
And we see it actually in mop remix.

Ignoring that sylvanas left behind the alliance to die at broken shore, betraying them (since she worked fir the jailer back ti end if wotlk)
And we got even a logbook in azuna which indicates shady horde activities there.
And genn was right to Attack since she tried to enslaved valky for the jailer to turn them to mawnsworn.

Zandalari and alliance are at war since cata and mop, so legitimate action, also horde use it as base of operation-same argument horde used to legitimate theramore-so same applies here.

Who says it was a single one-we don’t actually know, se can’t be sure uf all if the sunreaver were in garrosh payroll, so legitimate to arrest them all.
And i don’t believe ine mage would be capable to open the portal and then move the heavy bell alone.

Like the horde invaded the n11 ashenvale.
Double standard…

And alliance had right to Attack since horde started the war, invaded ashenvale.
In order to stopp, they open a second front by the barrens.
You cant complain about that since its war.

Again, the killing was an bug, mentioned above.
And again we don’t know if all of the sunreaver were sympathetic to tbe horde-so jailing them all is a legitimate action.
A real life comparison would be as the US arrest all Japanese in the USA after pearl habor an put them in internment camps.

190

We actually do know… https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thalen_Songweaver

was the Sunreaver spy that helped garrosh. And https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fanlyr_Silverthorn

So yeah… A whole wooping two elves in total. Are why the Sunreavers got purged.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran Even the articles mentions it as ‘‘A sunreaver agent’’ Not agents as in several.

You cannot condem the whole Alliance for the sins of Garithos… But you can condemn the whole of the Sunreavers on the acts of single Sunreaver agent. And you keep doing this guys. Really your rules only apply to the Horde. But never to the Alliance.

1 Like
191

That’s why I would be glad if they made alliance proper villain in one of the next expansion and at the end they finally pay for all their crimes, it would be fire. The most I hate in the alliance is how they treated blood elves all the time, they missed so many times the opportunity to consider them as friends, but no they subjected like 90% of population to death with Garithos actions, and the next events happened in actual wow which I will not repeat about. And overall alliance fanatics always think the alliance should never pay for their actions, it is wrong, they in fact should recognize their crimes and punish the bad actors in their own faction. For example, after Garithos actions send the forces from Stormwind to Dalaran and remove Garithos from power, imprison him and send on trial, then in regards of failed negotiations before tbc with spies, jail the spies and make sure that their Si:7 or whatever mind their business if there are some diplomatic talks underway and don’t interfere. Then in case of Taurajo, it is questionable but at least imprison the forces who striked unprovokedly. And about Jaina in MoP, tbh she would better go to prison, Variann could send her to jail for that and also remove her from Kirin’tor entirely.
And the whole story about alliance crimes is literally they don’t think through and consider the entire group or faction guilty and then “punish” them, where they actually should’ve been more laid back and find the actual roots of the problem and address it, and if the issue can be resolved diplomatically then solve it that way, and then we could live without purge of dalaran, burning of Taurajo and Garithos imprisoning and then subjecting to execute the entire blood elven population he had at his disposal.
If Blizzard could write actual good story for both factions and for example alliance would be portraited like actual good guys where they consider their mistakes and try to change the world for the better, and the horde has also their views which maybe more pragmatic and focused on survival, then maybe there were not such outrage about either horde receiving poor treatment and being constantly villain batted or the alliance actually not being portraited good but more like shady criminals from time to time

192

Why everyone forgot tha fact, Garithos’ Alliance Remnants were not the same Alliance that we have today?
The Alliance of Lordaeron is not the Grand Alliance we have today
Yes, spiritual successor and the memories of the allegiances and idealism of the Alliance of Lordaeron―centered in the homonymous continent―served as the ultimate inspiration for the new Alliance of the present day but not the same
Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was the leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War… he had nothingto do the Alliance we have today
Like how the Grand Alliance is not really repsonsible for the deeds of Arthas
If anything Garithos is a Lordaeronain “hero” and Forsaken lackey at best

193

One of the main issues of the alliance we have today and in general is probably their corruption in House of Nobles and their stubborness about some questionable actions they did in the past. And I believe some of the old ideals the Alliance had (at least Lordaeron one) were the prosperity, fairness, responsibility and overall decency, especially comparing to orcs in wc2. But because of corruption, jerky war commanders and lack of critical thinking they were failing and failing in various situations. Some kingdoms were even engaging in feudal wars, like alterac and stromgarde. For me it just feels that the alliance is like the lost opportunity, they could build great alliances and friendships with other folks of Azeroth, maybe they could avoid some wars. But the alliance both Lordaeronian and Grand alliance were failing these opportunities because of wrongly handling situations without proper thinking, empathy and building actual big picture of the situation before acting. I know this example is beaten down, but the purge of dalaran would never happen, if alliance did proper investigation of the deal, brought only actual offenders to punishment by imprisoning, instead we got what we got with Jaina murdering half of dalaran sunreavers population because of emotions.
Alliance now is more like the shadow of the once great heroic organisation it was before wc3

194

you are so wrong

195

Ok soooo Silvermoon was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, that Alliance was led by, you guessed it Lordaeron, after the 2nd war it didn’t have much reason to exist and some kingdoms drifted apart, that Alliance officially came to an end when Arthas killed his dad and decimated Lordaeron, shortly followed by Silvermoon. Garrithos took command of the few survivors because he was the highest ranking survivor of Lordaeron. Then he decided to be not so nice with the elves.

With the prequel out of the way I can finally answer your question. High elves were originally planned for the Alliance and, take this with a grain of salt because I learned this from another forum poster, Pandaren were going to be Horde in the original vanilla, this got cut due to not enough time to complete. Going forward into TBC Blizzard had heard a lot of complaints that Horde didn’t have any “pretty” races so they moved Elves to Horde and gave alliance Draenei. Lorewise the reason for the elves going Horde is because they refused to ask for help from SW for some reason, and Goth girl GF stepped in and saved them. The spies came after the BE had joined the Horde.

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It was called the new alliance iirc, an attempt of Garithos to claim power should it ever reform proper.

The elves had left the original alliance after the second war because Anasterian saw little merit in being part of this alliance
Garithos new alliance was what the blood elves trying to work with humans proper again but that soured quickly.

I would say this goes both ways tho, I often see people making claims about belf membership of the horde as if it was Blackhands or Doomhammers horde they joined and not Thralls horde.

197

Probably they lost all the trust in the alliance alltogether, and even if sw was reading minds and came to help they would decline it right away if that was the lore right before tbc. So then it seems like blizzard decided with elves going horde in the end of wc3 with putting garithos story

198

Ok then why did they accept help from orcs, trolls and undead then?

Literally said in my post that they decided the elves going Horde at the end of vanilla WoW due to complaints from Horde.

199

Thrall horde did not attack them, that is different organisation from what was in wc2 when they first came through dark portal

200

Neither did the Alliance of SW or how you would put it Varrians Alliance. If anything the elves refuse to help during the 1st war when SW fell.

201

it’s true that belves going horde was already planned during frozen throne production, belves having a grudge specifically against human formation and basing whole belves campaign plot around them going moody, edgy and demonic-magic-using knife-ears doesn’t make sense without intention of drawing away high elves from “noble-bright” factions.
It was planned for high elves to go alliance on early stages of wow, but game truly started to take concrete shape only closer to 2003, the same year frozen throne expac was released.

Geographically undead are MUCH much closer to belves, belves were in no shape to fight wars, forsaken were much stronger in military terms because they had a luxury of being able to call reinforcements from the horde side.
Consider all this, and also consider the fact that forsaken were ruled by their ex military hero, that undead made clear that they aren’t mindless zombies and can negotiate, peace talk and actually are helpful in fighting-off remnants of scourge, and that taurens seized opportunity and arranged peaceful negotiations.

What alliance did? they sent spies under suspicion that belves are evil demonic worshippers in secret.
It’s actually written pretty good