Who's the forsaken leader

Lore Story
21

That bit calls on a reference from Chronicles, that describes when Sylvanas and the Forsaken reached out to the rest of the human kingdoms (not the remnants of Lordaeron) and how their ambassadors were rebuked, to put it mildly, even before they made it past Stormwind’s city gates. Without a single mention to Garithos, by the way.

It didn’t help that hostilities never truly ceased, and that’s why Nathanos added the “hunted” bit, as we had the likes of Shaw sending soldiers to kill or chase him out of his home simply because they made no difference between him and the Scourge.

A feeling that, by the way, was been carried forth all the way up to some quite recent events.
In Before the Storm, the author highlights a generalised rejection against the undead amongst the human population (not because of what they did, but because of what they are).

In all, yes, in Warcraft’s context, Nathanos grips with the Alliance are about as valid as it gets.

They are not some hyperbole about wanting to sacrifice humans for the glory of Satan, or some sadistic pleasure for torture.

They are come out of the most natural, basic, and logical spite, and were birthed through the most naturally flawed and reasonable causalities.
They resonate with those of most of the faction.

Yeah, i just want to point out that (a) “That” Nathanos behaved in the same way as the one we have currently, and (b) has as only notable difference the fact that its rotting away.

Also, there is no “we” to be convinced in order to keep the character. Blizzard calls the shots in their story.
If they want to keep Nathanos around, they will. If they want him down the same sinkhole as Sylvanas, they will throw him there too.
I don’t know why anyone should be convinced to like or dislike any narrative in this setting. There is a wide range of themes to pick and use with everybody’s gaming experience.

I just answered Terra regarding why Nathanos Blightcaller is often called as some representative for the Forsaken faction.

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22

Yeah okay, apparently you can cannibalise humans after breaking your pact and then be entitled to turn around, make a surprised Pikachu face and postulate the implication that it all originates on human ‘arrogance’ and prejudice.

Maybe, just maybe, if you don’t want to be treated as a monster, don’t be one? It’s not like Garithos pushed them to become evil, they were quite happy to use treachery to begin with.

Which is fine, fair game, but then you can’t walk up and make statements like Nathanos’ and call them valid.

A man whom by the way, consumed the body of his cousin with a Val’kyr ritual to regain some body mass.

To put it bluntly, you can’t obstinately take the pedestal of an amoral killer, then point the finger at others with the expectation that they treat you humanely, with morals.

The actual, and very real point of contention the Forsaken had was against Arthas, the man who had actually made them into monsters, and actually wronged and violated them in every way possible. Not the Alliance.

Like revisioning history, I guess?

I think you have lost the argument from the moment you wrote “valid gripes” in reference to that.

Have a good day!

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23

Except we have nothing indicating that said prejudice was birthed out of those events, nor do we have any kind of indicator that could point at them being motivated by it.

As far as the story went, the humans in the Alliance rebuked the Forsaken simply because they were undead. And hunted Nathanos simply because they considered him the same as the Scourge.

You can draw hoops around rationalising said stance or try and point at the underlying hypocrisy any of the parts involved may have (you can do that with every race by the way), but the fact is that as far as Nathanos was concerned and as far as the story went, the Alliance did so out of basic and simple prejudice against his condition.
And that’s enough to bump him as quite an exemplifying case regarding the FORSAKEN faction.

There are cases that prove that’s just irrelevant.
We have had Forsaken being treated as monsters regardless of their actions.
Nathanos had assassins sent after him simply because he was undead. Turalyon almost killed Faol.
Nothing indicated Stormwind cared one bit about Garithos, or even knew about him or what happened. And still they hated the Forsaken simply for their condition.

You can’t grasp at actions as a source for said “bigotry”, when we know that these are often considered irrelevant.
Humans started hating the Forsaken not because of what they did, but because of what they were. And in several cases, said hate translated into a series of actions that created a self-fulfilled prophecy that often turned them into the monsters they so feared.

That’s what makes Nathanos gripes, valid, when seen from the Forsaken point of view.

Well, this wasn’t an argument but a clarification directed towards a specific person. Here :point_down:

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24

Ehh Garithos’ last words were literally “There, your business is done. Now, I want you wretched animals out of my city before I-”

And that’s by and large how he treated all his non-human allies. Aside from the human supremacy bunch, I think you won’t find many who’d think killing him was anything other than doing the world a favor.

Strictly speaking, it was Sylvanas who decided to kill Stephon and use his body in that ritual, not Nathanos- even though he certainly benefitted from it.
And his cousin was no innocent civilian, he was an enemy soldier who wouldn’t hesitate to kill Nathanos as well if he had the chance. He even tells him so.

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25

I absolutely agree with you.

Still, it doesn’t change the fact that when Sylvanas reached out for an alliance with the humans, the humans accepted. Unlike what Nathanos says.

Sylvanas set the condition that if they helped her, which they did, she would give them their lands back, which she took for herself.

Unlike what Nathanos says, the first arrow was shot by the Forsaken.

And probably for the best, otherwise it’s likely that without Lordaeron they would have perished, as well as Garithos remaining in power to do even more damage.

Uhm?

I didn’t know the Horde was at war with the Argent Crusade?

Also did not classify him as a civilian. But innocent, yes;

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stephon_Marris

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“I’m told that since taking his knightly oath, your dear cousin has patrolled the Plaguelands near that old farm of yours. He took down no small number of our people in the process.” Her voice turned to ice as she leaned in closer to her prisoner.

He certainly wasn’t neutral nor friendly.

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27

Ah good to know, the Argent Crusade is at open hostilities with the Horde.

Thanks for the update.

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Certainly that particular guy was.
Doubt the rest were. I do recall a few quests where the Horde works alongside them against the Legion at that time.

And it’s not as if the Argent Crusade hasn’t birthed all sorts of fanatics that go rogue on the organisation and end up needing to be deposed by one side or another.

29

Or Sylvanas is lying.

The implication here is that the Argent Crusade is sending patrols that are killing “no small number” of Horde.

How would that happen without the Horde questioning the Argent Crusade? And in case he was a rogue cell who went by himself on killing sprees, why was he not liquidated from the Argents for his aggressions?

Doesn’t add up.

But then again, so few things do in modern lore.

30

“No small number” of Forsaken. And nothing indicates the Argent Crusade is sending patrols.

Also, we don’t know if this guy was still part of the organisation. Only that he still held their sigil in his clothing.

And dialogues such as these:

“Then I began hearing stories of a horror called the Blightcaller haunting the Marris stead, hunting down heroes of the Alliance who sought to restore peace. I feared this was the creature that murdered Nathanos, and I vowed to take its head. It was only when I overheard two refugees of Darrowshire whisper the fiend’s true name that I learned what you had become.”

Stephon let his words hang in the air. “And on that day, I threw the coin into the river.” He spat upon the stone floor.

Highlight exactly where this guy stands in regards to undead. As well, as the approach he’d have regarding them or Nathanos.

So yeah, Sylvanas doesn’t seem to be lying here.
Specially given we have her genuine aversion towards him and his actions, seeping in, in that same text:

Her voice turned to ice as she leaned in closer to her prisoner. “I could have ordered my dark rangers to end his life, of course…”

The Argents aren’t omniscient regarding what happens across the entire land. There are many, many, rogue elements out and about in both the Western and Eastern Plaguelands. We also have the Scarlets, the Cult of the Damned, Scholomance, Forest trolls,…
Some lone wolf going about killing Forsaken would probably fly under the radar of both factions. Specially when he is doing such in a land contested by so many enemies.

And i don’t think the Forsaken would want to present this case in front of the entire Horde. They would probably want to deal with it internally.
Specially given how they ended up putting an end to it.

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31

Last I checked the Forsaken were Horde.

The fact they’re Forsaken doesn’t change the fact of the question.

An Argent agent is killing Horde members.

Which is incongruent with what the Argent Crusade stands for.

So if he really did go out in patrols to kill Horde, how did that work out while being an Argent?

This goes in direct contradiction with the statement of “killing no small number” of Horde. For years (since he has been a paladin for longer than recent).

Wasn’t a few isolated and stealthy assassinations. It was known enough for the leader of the Forsaken to intervene personally. Apparently.

But either way, this was a bit of a tangent on Stephon, the rest of my points still stand. I can concede that Stephon is not innocent, though.

32

The actions said guy carried out, were explicitly directed against a specific group from said faction.
And the Horde can’t take issue regarding a matter if the people directly affected by it decide to deal with said problem by themselves without involving the rest of the faction.

So no, the Forsaken being part of the Horde is irrelevant here.

Off the top of my head, i’d say that it would work if said person had grown more radical regarding certain stuff, and in order to further his own goals/mindset, would either be willing to either dump the organisation (while keeping their regalia), or carry out some questionable stuff off duty (or without the rest of the organisation’s knowledge).

Given his radical views regarding the undead, as exposed in that same story, i’d say that’d be the case.

He seemed to be an Argent that felt like turning into some vigilante that patrolled Forsaken territory.

We don’t know how much control does Sylvanas have over her territory, how complacent the Argents had turned after the years, or if they were busy dealing with other stuff elsewhere in order to miss said stuff.

What we know, is that there is this paladin openly proclaiming his hate for the Forsaken, and the Forsaken leader openly displays her animosity against him for the fact that he has been out and about killing her people.

If your point was about Stephon not being considered a Forsaken enemy, i disagree on that being the case.

In all, my take on the whole thing would be that there’s one dude, with a mentality more akin to that of the Scarlet Crusade, that felt like attacking the Forsaken going solo. And unfortunately for him, ended up getting caught.

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33

I would not be to supriced if they pull a 360 on calia, and she goes back to the alliance, whit forsaken followers, and all of an sudden alliance have lightforged forsaken or something.

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34

Honestly, at this point there’s only very little that would surprise me at all, no matter how nonsensical.

35

Undead Kael’thas! Undead Genn! Undead Me’dan! Undead Garithos! Undead Alternate Garrosh From The Future! Undead Naaru! Undead President Xi! Undead Van Cleef! Undead Thunder King! Undead Ragnaros!

The possibilities for Forsaken are truly endless!

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36

As are the numbers of proposed candidates I’ve seen so far. I really don’t know why it can’t just be someone from the old squad.

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37

What about my ghoul? I’m willing to part with him.

38

What’s his name again? Supreme Leader Rotlurker or something?

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/608750756199399455/739238144217448498/blightcaller.jpg

He already assumed a new identity to fit the forsaken society better. Just contact Northgrave-Ravencrest andd I’ll ship him to Orgrimmar tomorrow.

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40

Undead Delaryn Summermoon for Forsaken leader.

So we can go full circle with the Arthas metaphors started in the War of Thorns. Because we really needed those.

She can also have her own character-specific voicelines to emphasise her personality, such as:

“What hope is there in this curse?”

#DelarynSummermoon2020