Invading when the Forsaken invaded first by killing Garithos and his armies who were allied with Dalaran LMAO
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I might be misremembering, I can’t remember the exact quotes so that’s why I prefered to say “the living killed them”, because I can’t remember if they were hunted down by the official powers, or simply by the general populace at first sight.
Which would mean the attacks on the Kirin Tor were without provocation.
A line the Forsaken imagined and that the Kirin Tor didn’t actually cross. They were living, they were humans, they had to die.
What did the Kirin Tor do to warrant those attacks?
What do you mean at random?
The Alliance of Lordaeron they were allied to had collapsed years before. The Alliance they were in didn’t exist anymore.
Well the only one who said they were hunted down is Nathanos, and he obviously isn’t a reliable source. It was geographically impossible for the Alliance to hunt down the Forsaken.
No. Don’t oversimplify it:
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=482/dalarans-intentions
They were humans and they were enemies. They were doing something that could pose a danger to the Forsaken. They had to die.
That’s not having an unprovoked attack. There is a cause and en effect: meddle in what they consider their lands, and you get attacked by the Forsaken faction.
The Forsaken didn’t go out their way to go kill humans on some foreign territory. In this case, they fought in what they considered a threat.
And still most of the original members remained and carried on with the “New brand”.
Plus, gameplay has several Kirin Tor members actively participating in Alliance affairs, even if they indeed remain hostile to Horde ones.
You see, until there is factual clarification about it, the matter remains unclear. Even if there are some strong indicators regarding the ties that lingered if only out of the common human background of everyone involved…
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Oh no, a quest given by the Forsaken paints Dalaran as bad, that is definitive proof that Dalaran is bad.
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But how? Because they wanted to reactivate a dormant leyline? How does that classify them as enemies, what action did they take that made them enemies?
The quest you linked just further goes to prove that it was due to paranoia and prejudice.
They were living, they were humans, they had to die.
Yes, it is.
Consider is the key word here.
It’s Gilnean territory, it was and it always has been, even outside of Lordaeron’s crown.
Just because, let’s say the Trolls suddenly consider Teldrassil to be their land, which absolutely is not, it would not make an aggression justifiable or any less unprovoked. The Alliance is guilty of this in cases like the Stonespire tribe, what they wrongfully considered to be right did not make their actions rightful.
The amount of logic you’re stretching to defend the undefendable here…
No, this is a misrepresentation of a game mechanic, that of the Kirin Tor not being hostile to Alliance characters in-game, unless you have a source to back up that the Kirin Tor was in coalition with the Alliance.
I need only point at the Kul Tirans in Durotar, likewise friendly to Alliance characters, but not actually sent by or in coalition with, the Alliance.
Is it really that alien, that a faction strengthening their hold over a territory, or gaining direct access to something as potent as a Ley line, might pose a threat to the ones directly opposing them?
Having those that thought of the Forsaken as just another undead bunch to get rid of, getting hold of something that can be (and in some cases has been) used as a weapon, will obviously set off the alarms amongst the Forsaken faction.
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=479/ambermill-investigations
We must hurry, their plans must not come to fruition, or we may lose our hold on Silverpine Forest.
This whole thing is something the Forsaken obviously worried about.
There is a causality behind the attack.
The quest i linked literally says:
The wizards must be planning to reactivate the node and use its energies for some greater purpose.
We cannot allow this to happen…
Highlighting the fact that the attack was based on the actions the target was carrying out. Not its condition.
At said point, and given the state of the kingdom that used to rule over said land, both sides considered said land was for the taking.
It might not be part of what initially comprised Lordaeron, but given the quests, and the story around said area at that time, the Forsaken had indeed already moved to populate it and claim it for themselves.
It might not be historically theirs, but they made it if only by the sheer right of occupation/conquest.
Given Dalaran mages moving around it and taking from it too, said mindset wasn’t exactly thinking out of the box for those around the place.
I’m not stretching anything.
You said that said attack was unprovoked, and i quoted several quests that point at the rationale behind it, and the provocation the Forsaken had in order to carry it out.
And then you grasped at it all being part of racism against humans, which again, doesn’t seem to be the case in this scenario.
You are grasping at what you view as flawed ingame representation in order to discard the apparent, while arguing that no such relation existed basing said argument in even flimsier reasons (and quite a bit of speculation).
Do you have actual proof regarding the Kirin Tor leaving the Alliance after the Third War?.
There are strong indicators about the Kirin Tor maintaining their relation with the Alliance. Prominent members acting under, or with, Alliance factions and characters.
Rhonin, Karlain, Ansirem,…many of the Council of Six played important roles in Alliance affairs.
If you want a source, there are three different novels that had Rhonin being dispatched under the Alliance flag, and working alongside the Wildhammers, the Silver Hand paladins, and the Bronzebeards.
And much like them, many less known faces have acted as questgivers or aid in Alliance related stuff and even against Horde interests throughout Classic/BC times.
You are discarding it all, with the lone argument that the faction could have splintered from the Alliance after the Third war. Even if there are several other cases (factions, kingdoms,…) that were shown impervious to said events and maintained their position amongst the Alliance ranks.
I really don’t want to come along as an overbearing prick, but there are ample indicators that point at a continuation of the Alliance-Kirin Tor partnership.
edit: typos
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You’re so silly Calevarn. Only the Forsaken are allowed to strengthen their hold over Lordaeron. The Kirin Tor can’t do that, not even if it’s limited to a random village. It should be obvious, why is this concept so alien to you.
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Key word is “might” pose a threat to them.
The Kirin Tor was busy rebuilding their city. Which still makes the attacks from the Forsaken unprovoked.
Which is exactly what I have been saying from the start.
Paranoia and prejudice.
The rationale behind it doesn’t make it any more unprovoked.
The Kirin Tor didn’t actually do anything that could warrant extermination, maybe their preparation was to invade Lordaeron and conquer it from Sylvanas, but it’s much more probable that their efforts were being directed at rebuilding Dalaran.
We don’t know for certain, but the fact the Forsaken didn’t know for certain either makes it an unprovoked aggression.
No, I don’t see the apparent Alliance flag being waved by the Kirin Tor that you claim was there to justify the Forsaken murdering them.
You have yet to present any conclusive evidence for it. Unless you’re telling me the Forsaken command and Sylvanas are in full possession of the novels you listed, or alternatively had access to wowpedia at the time.
They were living, they were humans, they had to die because of the ifs, and coulds. Not because of anything they actually did.
It wasn’t right, or justifiable.
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The Kirin Tor were such a threat to the Forsaken… I mean, they controlled ONE village! And had 20 wizards! They could have easily invaded Lordaeron, so I cant blame the Forsaken for exterminating them.
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One Gilnean village outside of Lordaeron’s borders, no less.
And probing into Forsaken lands to either investigate or outright eradicate the undead segments lingering there. Which again, included the Forsaken.
Something that’s unprovoked is done for no good reason, with no real cause.
The Forsaken presented the reason, which is the humans doing somehing that threated their dominion over said land. That’s a cause.
Assuming they were wrong (debatable), doesn’t make the whole thing unprovoked, as the cause for it remains.
I never claimed that. Quote me where you think i did.
I did say that everything points at a continuation regarding the Kirin Tor/Alliance relation (Something you repeatedly argued against).
But never said that was the reason for the Forsaken to attack them.
This was my first take regarding this bit of information and its relation with the humans in the scenario at hand:
The rest of the tangent had me insisting on the fact that there are several instances that show the Kirin Tor continued to collaborate and be part of the Alliance affairs, while you tried to deny it.
Do not mix it with the causality behind the attack on Amberhill mages, because i’ve clarified since the zero minute what the reasoning behind said attack was.
They were attempting to harness the energies of the Ley Line placed on what the Forsaken considered their territory. And given the precedents and events around the area, this was considered a provocation and a threat to the Forsaken presence there.
But i’m glad you are no longer arguing that they were killing humans for the sake of it.
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No, something that is unprovoked is done without provocation.
You yourself gave the definition:
I’m sorry that I don’t see re-activating a dormant leyline in Gilnean territory as an aggressive action, or an actual provocation towards the Forsaken.
It didn’t.
They just believed they did, which is not cause enough to rightfully exterminate them.
They were likely wrong, and it was unprovoked.
You keep taking Alliance influence as part of your argument for the justification of Forsaken aggression.
I keep disregarding it, because Alliance influence is not once mentioned or implied as a justification for the attacks.
They were living, they were humans, that is what made them enough of a menace for them to be attacked unprovoked, not because they were Alliance.
The Forsaken attack first, unprovoked, of course they are enemies of the Forsaken. That doesn’t make them Alliance.
Zarao I’m starting to consider your home my territory.
I will be wholly justified to come in there and murder your family to take it.
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All is forgiven when it’s done in the name of Big Goth Mom.
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The Horde truly is above wrongdoing.
Horde actions never have any consequences. They can kill Kirin Tor in several zones, kill Argents in Ashenvale, replague the plaguelands and so on, but they’ll always be good boi greenskins who dindu nuffin.
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Given the treatment these things have had in game, its the equivalent of claiming a nuclear silo…
And regardless of how said land was historically considered, fact remains that at that moment (be it through conquest or occupation), it was largely inhabited by the Forsaken. Something known by all parts concerned.
Given the precedents when dealing with humans, and the treatment they had or were having in other places such as the Plaguelands at their hands (not saying the animosity wasn’t mutual), said sort of actions were indeed seen as a provocation and cause to react.
Thats exaggerating what happened here.
The expressed concern the Forsaken had there, was about halting said exact activity, not to outright exterminate them. Here are some quotes showing this:
- Dalar is attempting to locate the source of the wizards’ spellcasting. For now, we’ll have to slow their progress in any way we can…
- The conjurers, mages and protectors are no doubt carrying the pendants. Remove and retrieve them.
- We must hurry, their plans must not come to fruition, or we may lose our hold on Silverpine Forest.
- A wizard of great power is guiding the magic energy. He must be stopped quickly.
- Your efforts have been fruitful, , and we have dealt a major blow to our enemies, and to the overbearing wizards of Dalaran.
- We must be vigilant, however, knowing that source of energy lies so close at hand… Plans must be made for the future.
Everything points at their concern being with those humans, their enemies, meddling with the Ley Line.
There is no overkill about them wanting to outright exterminate them all.
Doubt that, given most of the other quests that treat the undeath as a disease and the Forsaken as something to be eradicated as both Horde allies and Undead.
Still, even if they were wrong, that doesn’t turn their actions into something without cause.
Saying i’m taking it as an influence is stretching what i said.
The Blue tag simply reinforces the fact that those humans were to be considered enemies. Because as the setting goes, the Alliance was a Forsaken enemy.
I never took it as a factor any more relevant to the argument than because of the above reasons.
Still:
Given your posts, you did seemed to disregard the tangent about fact that the Kirin Tor largely remained part of the Alliance faction. Not as a linked predicament to the main issue, but even as a standalone factor.
Am i to assume that i was wrong? You do agree on the fact above, and simply argue against it having a prominent role in the reasoning behind this particular incident?
If that’s so, at least on that regard we might reach some common ground.
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Actually literally the only presence the Forsaken had in Silverpine was a decrepit sepulcher, so it wasn’t their land, but whatever. It’s known that conquest is fine only when the Forsaken do it.
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Because they saw them to be so, not because they objectively were provocating anything.
Wrong, how exactly do you go about depriving the Kirin Tor of their runic pendants, en masse, is to kill the wizards en masse. You empty out Ambermill of wizards, apprentices and protectors, along with other camps across Silverpine in order to retrieve the enchanted items from their bodies.
Acknowledging only a portion of the quoted text is rather convenient here.
Because they made them to be so.
I don’t know about you, between retaking Lordaeron and rebuilding Dalaran, Dalaran sounds like the most plausible here.
Unprovoked, unrightful, driven by their apprehension and paranoia, which is what I’ve been arguing.
No it’s not.
What Alliance faction? The one that collapsed after Terenas’ death?
“Largely remained” is as good as an assumption as any, how do you remain in something that does not exist?
And still, how does any of this justify the Forsaken?
They just happened to tap on a nuclear silo. The same dudes that were allied with those that wanted the Forsaken exterminated or kicked out the lands they considered theirs.
Sorry, but claiming a potential WMD, in a territory losely controlled by a collective that has recently suffered from attacks by your same kind, will obviously trigger a reaction.
You implying they sought extermination is factually incorrect given the quest that literaly says that the killings are but a mean to prevent a particular event from happening. Not the goal itself.
I’m sorry, but there is no way around that.
Going with a hyperbole doesn’t make the actual/more grounded goal any different than the one they truly had.
Taking the vague amount of killed NPCs as categorical proof for outright extermination and making it the goal of said actions, regardless of the expressed reasoning literally clarified in that same text, is also rather convenient.
Debatable given Chronicles and the quest around Classic. And awfully sidetracking regarding the scenario here as i wasn’t discussing the circumstances that led to said situation, but the state both sides were in at the time of the aforementioned scenario.
I didn’t say they were aiming at retaking Lordaeron. I just pointed at the fact that said presence threatened the Forsaken dominion there.
The scale said mages would use in order to further their agenda is up to debate, but its a fact that the goal about eradicating or dealing with the undead was indeed on the table and ongoing.
And this obviously threatened the Forsaken, as both undead, and allied to the enemies of those mages faction.
Setting up camp, or getting a hold of something like a ley line, will obviously pose a threat to them.
Nope.
I’m curious about your logic in plenty other instances in WoW, as apparently for as long as the target doesn’t follow through, or there is room to debate regarding how reasonable the perpetrator is, then any action is apparently written as “unprovoked”.
No, the one that continued with most of the members that comprised the initial one.
The one whom most of the Kirin Tor seem to operate under at that time.
I don’t want to sidetrack, so i’ll remind you again, that your initial argument was that the Kirin Tor wasn’t part of the Alliance. Given your texts, it seemed you were talking about the current one. Am i wrong?
Also, regarding this part:
I’ve repeatedly said in what way do these two predicaments link. And it certainly isn’t about the Alliance trait acting as justification.
I’ll quote again what i kept on saying:
If you wish to continue arguing that i said otherwise, or that i weighted said circumstance any more than i did, do so. But regardless of how many times you insist on it, it’ll remain untrue.
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