Why criminal role-play doesn't last, or have a place on AD

Argent Dawn
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So, I’d like to make this an open topic of discussion on why criminal role-play doesn’t work on Argent Dawn, or in the setting of World of Warcraft.

I’ve been sitting on this a while, trying to dig into the meat of this awkward bone, which I’ve never really understood.

In fantasy novels, the criminals cause the tension. They steal plot-related items from the rich. They brawl in the taverns. Cause riots. Tax the market stalls in the quays. Control and fund transportation. Set up brawl pits; horse racing; dogfighting; entertainment; inns. If there’s money to be made then behind the scenes, there’s a crook.

In Stormwind, we have the Shady Lady, and that’s it. So, the foundations for success are not there to begin with. To have criminals, we would need an active, working city, with all the infrastructure described above.

… But then, we’ve tried that, haven’t we? WB Trading Co. Gutter Runners. Smidgens. Reed, Guarrez, Siavash. Shady Lady. All have pushed initiatives, set up events, and fair enough-- some fires burn out more quickly than others, but surely some should have stuck?

With all this initiative over the years, why hasn’t it lasted? It clicked for me the other day: player characters cannot be threatened or bullied.

Crooks need to be able to walk up to any character in the street who they suss out as vulnerable and antagonize them. Coerce them for cash. Intimidate them so that they can infiltrate families, government and military. Bribe; control; take over territory. Most importantly, criminals need to reliably harm people who threaten them, so that other characters understand they have a reputation and aren’t to be taken lightly.

Without this, a black hole exists. It sucks in progress made. Without the understanding between players that Character A. is a criminal and Character B. is a victim, criminals are out of their depth in most IC situations.

To bring this all in to a conclusion, average Joe will more often than not dismiss consequences to his or her character brought on by a criminal. He will either meta, or power emote, or refuse responsibility, then retreat to his safe space or bubble RP, and refuse the tension criminals offer. If Character A. mouths off to a criminal in a tavern, then realistically said criminal should be able to turn around and inflict harm on them (whilst initiating possible consequences from the law system). But because the victims often don’t want to be victims, we find we dismiss and devalue the criminal roleplayer, and essentially make him look like an idiot. This is why brawls in Stormwind are now scoffed at and seen as ‘bad-RP’, when in fact brawls can be a good way to make friends, rivals and gain respect when coordinated between two healthy role-players.

A quick disclaimer. I am aware there’s arranged criminal role-play going on in Stormwind. Often in the case of murder investigations, or people playing alts for their guild events, etcetera. And that’s fantastic. What I’m describing here is why the simple, guildless crook no longer has a home or opportunities in Stormwind because the city has become a place where you can sort of… Veg out, and orchestrate a conversation with a stranger, rather than get lost in.

Thoughts?

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Pretty much summed it up.
People want to be the heroes and don’t want to be the victims, or if there are any victims a hero will turn up midway through a crime and stop it.

As I have fond memories of it The Stormwind City watch did a good job of being an incompetent law enforcement guild which gave the likes of the Legitimate Business Club a chance to do some scams and general crime.

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Can we get some recognition and a round of applause from Theolain and his guild the Oath of Silver for lasting so long with a criminal role-play and guild. Still dishing out wonderful initiatives and filled with equally great roleplayers. I believe most if not all of them are all to willing to work with other players, accepting consequences that can come with their actions and vice versa.

Concepts like these, as well as the law related ones is more of a give and take one rather than event orientated. A lot of players have different ideas in mind of what that really means.

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I remember them, too. That’s a pretty perfect and hilarious example. A Python-esque guild who complimented the dodgy guilds around them, allowing them to interact on even terms, occasionally get a bust, but more often than not the swindlers would continue to swindle.

Right now, we have three law enforcement guilds (which there’s nothing wrong with), but nowhere near that population of criminals. As you say, Ercia, it is a give and take relationship… Is it worth theorizing that over the years we may have took more from criminals than we gave, and that’s why they don’t feel inclined to stick around?

And credit where it’s due, I was in Oath of Silver long ago. Alex and her Officers are very good people. They make you feel very welcome and support your initiatives through and through.

On the note of Goldthwaite’s thread, Lakeshire could definitely be an opportunity for a bandit guild that works in conjunction with the rest of the population, don’t you think?

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Might wanna sit down before I tell you this, but criminals (and by extension, RP) can also exist outside of stormwind.

Not to mention that not all crime needs to be some big organized thing, pickpockets for the win.

Your later point is more spot-on with the actual problem of criminal RP though, it can be near-impossible to find someone going along with even the most harmless of deeds against their character (i.e getting a few coins or some trinket slipped out of their pockets), though to my experience this is because of the history of both sides of the coin.

Both ‘good’ and ‘bad’ characters have a long-standing habit of being completely untouchable, the criminals will be super mega master ninja assassin cyborgs and the good boys will be untouchable bastions of the great, righteous Light.

tl;dr good boi nor bad boi RP has a place in RP.
Damn RPers, they ruined RP!

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Oath of Silver and Sixty Thieves come to mind as criminal concepts that stuck. Another fascinating thing I have observed is that roleplayers in Orgrimmar are far more accepting to having their pockets picked, going through plots of being scammed, robbed and on the other spectrum being caught and captured.

So while blackmailing merchants is rarely a viable concept on Horde due to a shortage of merchants, criminals and crooked companies on Horde have thus far managed to find countless trading partners and buyers, set up brawl pits and entertainment in the past. The two guilds I commended in the first paragraph alone have had a history of consistent racketeering, theft and even running shady inns for years now.

I think inherently that the issue isn’t realm or setting, but rather the approach Alliance have toward RP, where winning often prevails over character development - that sort of attitude is a major obstacle for criminal RP and one of many reasons that the concept has never worked well on said faction in recent years.

There is currently a(nother) start-up initiatve for Lakeshire happening - were one to dig into criminal RP there, my advice would be to develop a give-and-take system where loss equals character development rather than ‘well, boo’.

A good example would be monopolizing a commodity that is rare, unavailable, if not contraband on the market, charging protection money, blackmailing important figures… If I recall correctly, the organizer of the Lakeshire initiative this time would be more than open to criminal RP in the region without sicing 500 paladins on you!

(Or just, y’know, seize the inn before anyone else!)

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The same could be said for lawful guilds. It’s always easier said than done in practice. There’ll be situations that arise where a player feels they should come out on top but then so does the other.

People need to remember that losing also brings an impactful experience to your roleplay, sometimes more than winning. It gives your character a reason to return be it for revenge or whatever, in the long run providing further story development. I don’t know about others, but I enjoy consequences with my characters only, reminding them that they’re not immortal among many other things. It gives them a reason to strive to be better.

Just to put it in short, more enticing stories to be had!

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In my experience, criminal guilds fail because of people that play characters that are the law, like guard guilds.

Because they can just ‘arrest’ your character due to a meta hunch or because they’re a guard guild and they can. Realistically you’d need to prove X person is guilty before an unbiased judge, whereas if I play a guard I can just arrest your dude like nobody’s business.

I recently saw a guild beat someone up till they passed out ( they resisted arrest and assaulted someone ) and throw them into a lake to drown. This sh it would never fly in the Horde and the guardsmen responsible would be fired on the spot. Since when do guards play judge, jury, executioner?

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I feel like the majority of criminal guilds have fallen as a result of extensive drama with other guilds, which spawned from poorly executed and managed IC conflicts.

Roleplaying a criminal is very heavily focused on creating and managing conflicts with other characters, and no conflict comes without consequence. Every criminal roleplayer should be of the mindset that the longer they continue on the path of crime, the more notorious they will become and the more enemies they will make, thus increasing the likelihood of getting caught and being brought to justice. As a criminal, you reap what you sow. I would suggest to have the mindset that in the end, you can’t win.

You can win some, of course, and the people on the other side of the law should also keep in mind that roleplay is about creating a story. While taking a beating from a hero-type character is all fine and dandy and part of the game, they should also try to make an effort not to stifle the roleplay by murdering your character or sending them in for a life-long prison sentence. Instead, generate more roleplay. There are much more interesting ways to punish a character than sending them to the prison or a chopping block, especially on Horde. E.g. public shaming, gladiator fights, as well as the classic removal of body parts - if kept within reason.

Keeping IC and OOC apart is particularly important for criminal roleplayers: if you can’t stand the idea of something bad happening to your character, then don’t play a criminal. Because bad things will happen. Many people are too obsessed OOC about their characters winning, and if you’re playing a criminal, you’re in for a big disappointment. People forget that losing is a part of the story too, and in fact, in my guild we’ve had some of our most fun and interesting roleplay following large setbacks, needing to spend weeks on the run, avoiding civilization.

An important thing that you must always remember as a criminal is that law enforcement guilds and rival organisations are not your enemies OOC. Open up conversation and co-operate with your rivals. Set up some clear and basic rules for your conflict to ensure pre-emptively that no OOC drama will occur. E.g. “killable only by killables”, or “no attacks on hideouts/bases outside of peak RP hours”. This also works on a smaller scale; if you’re robbing a random person on the street, start up conversation OOC; ask if they’re alright with what is going, or at the very least start a lighthearted conversation with the victim, to make sure there are no hard feelings and both sides are enjoying the roleplay.

Now, I won’t claim to know the Alliance criminal-side very well, but Brigands was definitely an example of a very well-executed criminal guild on there, focusing on banditry and other crime on the roads of the Kingdom, rather than cities or towns. It was a pure joy being part of that community, and there’s no doubt it could be repeated if someone had the time and will to take initiative.

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I largely agree with you OP, but I think your focus is a bit off on the mark, in that it does not inherently have to do with player characters accepting consequences, it has to do with the lack of communication for a system of criminals, consequences and authenticity to take place, because as you described, for “average Joe” the RP moment with a criminal is very fleeting and not likely to garner either of them more than a passing moment of RP.

This inherently reduces the impact on “average Joe” (and the criminal might I add), so both parties are less likely to consider it a serious occurrence in their characters’ lives. This is because, as you said, the underlying systems to represent or to blend realism with fantasy are not really there, they themselves are fleeting “burn out” as you phrased it.

So, in conclusion I don’t think you’re right in the assumption that players are unwelcome to “consequences”, they probably are it’s just that they don’t want these consequences to be levied onto them by such a passing moment that overall has no impact on either party in the RP. What is lacking is OOC communication to write/weave a larger narrative and story into why these things occur, which an author of a book can do, but us players have a much harder time doing.

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I lead a Penal Company which is twist on the Guard/Criminal concept. Of course you can’t rp a criminal how you like due to military officers being present.

Its a unique situation and we are all finding our feet with it but I hope it lasts :slight_smile:

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The main problem here is that even if you had a well planned criminal guild, they would run into someone who would meta knowing what they do. That’s the main issue in my opinion. And when that happens as a mostly regular occurrence (i’ve personally seen it happen), people tend to avoid doing it since it ruins their RP.

And while it is possible to simply ignore the meta gamers, it tends to create a lot of drama, since the metagamers start accusing the criminals of being lolers for avoiding their meta…

And that creates a lot of really un-needed drama and problems.

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I wouldn’t say that metagaming is the main problem, but it is most certainly still an issue that comes up often. The metagaming of guild tags is probably the most classic example.

The severity of metagaming can vary a lot, though. If it’s something minor that doesn’t reach outside of that one encounter, then a simple conversation with the offender ought to do the trick, as it is unlikely to greatly impact the story of either character. Most often people are surprisingly reasonable if you keep the talk civil.

In more severe cases where the information is furthered on to other guilds and communities and the offender won’t hear reason, having a chat with the GM of the offender’s guild is a good place to start, after which the officers of any other involved guilds can be informed to void whatever knowledge they had been given. If the offender is guildless, then you can go straight for step two.

Again, I can’t speak much for how things work on the Alliance, but I would expect that the communities aren’t that different (but I could be wrong). In my experience, 9 cases out of 10 can be resolved with a simple conversation, and both parties can continue their RP as before. Of course it can be tedious to have these talks to begin with, and I understand if it may discourage some people from doing that sort of RP.

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As others have highlighted, OoS and Sixty Thieves do an excellent job.

I personally believe the issue is the Roleplay on Alliance is the true problem.

A number of causes such as meta-gaming, drama; etc. I think are to blame for such.

I would like to see more ‘bad guy’ guilds, but those not inherently evil.

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From what I’ve found, this is more of an issue on Alliance, than on Horde. I made a post on a Pet Peeves topic at one point about “issues of meta with our Guild tag”, and an Alliance player happened to mention that at least in Stormwind and other hubs, a lot of criminals go around discussing their crimes on the street, and don’t tend to acknowledge NPC’s. This rarely happens Horde side, and if it does, they usually get taken down by Hand of Conquest of another grunt guild that happens to overhear them (or even an independent player).

A lot of this stems down to the players doing the crime, and the players taking it. There needs to be mutual respect and understanding that IC is IC, and OOC is OOC, as well as a will to take consequences. A lot of people tend to ignore NPC’s and their presence, as well, because player characters are deemed to be “more important” than the NPC’s. This also comes from a stiff non acknowledgment of guards or grunts when in reality, they truly should be acknowledged.

A lot of this critique is from Stormwind RP, which, having been in Stormwind at a time on an alt, I uh… chose to not roleplay there anymore for the simple fact that the quality was not what I had hoped it would be. So it’s not that “criminal role-play doesn’t have a place on AD”, it’s that a lot of the players seem to forget that when you’re playing a criminal, you aren’t the good guy. More often than not, you’re the bad guy, and you’ll get taken down. You’re meant to provide interesting RP to whoever you mug, steal, attempt to murder, threaten, and give the other player some good and interesting character development, should they wish to it. And there’s no way in hell you’re going to be able to win all the time when you’re playing an antagonist. You’ll lose more often than win.

That’s what makes playing a criminal so damned satisfying. When you ‘win’, it’s damned difficult and more often than not a chore.

But, it’s not all about winning or losing: it’s about providing fun RP to all involved. I’m getting sidetracked here, but the point is… criminal RP does have a place. People just need to be more aware of what it entails, their impact on the community from it, as well as some decent respect between both the criminal and the victim.

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This is a bit misleading in its wording. Alliance RP isn’t any better or worse in this regard; roleplayers are roleplayers, whichever race/faction/hub they choose.

But in regards to the topic, and it’s probably been touched on already in the thread, is that for too many people, roleplay becomes like the PVE and PVP content in game: they play to win.

Of course this is silly, because you can’t ‘win’ at RP - especially not in WoW. But many (I couldn’t give you an exact figure) people do their damnedest anyway. There’s (in)famous examples of gold being paid to sabotage guilds, but most of the time it’s less noteworthy; people refusing to allow their characters to receive injuries, even they’ve written themselves into a corner, or wanting to be the bad guy but not to ever get caught.

I’d say that the reason why criminal RP most often flounders is an attitude problem that’s very common in large RP communities - not just AD by any means. While the goal should ostensibly be to cooperate to make fun stories and play interesting characters, that’s not always the case.

Guard RPers often refuse to be unsuccessful in capturing criminals; when they fail, the criminal is labelled a bad RPer who refuses to accept the consequences of their actions. Criminal RPers similarly label the guards as heavy-handed power-gamers who quash their RP. There’s no give and take; there’s just take.

As a slight tangent, I think this stretches beyond just this topic. I’ve encountered a lot of RPers who act as though the only story that matters is their own, and others are just side-characters to be used as vehicles for their own RP and desires. RP is cooperative and it can be easy to forget that, especially when someone becomes very passionate about their character, to the point where they’re not really interested when it’s not all about them.

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Apologies if it did appear misleading, but I do not see this problem on Horde? ‘thus I came to the conclusion it is an Alliance issue and not AD.

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Passing judgement on an entire category of server-wide RP, based solely on your experience with it in Stormwind, might not be the best idea. That being said, there has been plenty of successful criminal initiatives that have come out of Stormwind, such as the Gutter Runners, Bloody Hatters, Cobble Bludgers, Bowline Lighters, etc. They worked because they actually made use of the wide space that the city has to offer, and didn’t only stick to the cesspit that the Shady Lady now has become. Moreover, they had good chemistry with the law enforcement of SCW because neither of the parties took themselves overly serious, and were accustomed to losing, unlike current Stormwind criminals whose pride and badassery won’t permit them to show a smidge of weakness.

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I can’t say whether it’s a current problem - though I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that it is - but when I used to only play blood elves, I definitely encountered similar things in Silvermoon. While Oath of Silver are a great guild, and could be easily described as the benchmark for good criminal roleplay, the ‘Murder Row’ RPers were easily equivalent to the ‘Shady Lady’ RPers in terms of what’s generally considered bad criminal RP. They acted and spoke in roughly an identical manner; maybe it’s less prominent now because there seems to generally be less RP in the city.

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‘thus I rarely go to Silvermoon.

(Unless for events, gatherings; etc)