Why Destro lock > MM hunter in damage and How to make Marksmanship Viable based on actual Meta

PVP Arenas
1

We gonna compare this two ability since they got the same charge ( hunter 2 charge, warlock 2,5 charge ), the recovery rate is the same ( 12 sec for aim shot and 8 seconds cast time to get back 2 soulshard for a chaos bolt .

so Chaos bolt is 240% of the spell power and it’s magical ( pierce armor) and can get his damage upgraded by 65% in PvP situation. and it always crit so consider it’s 594% of the spell power in PvP. The stats crit increase it’s damage. Got many relation with enhanced spell ( Infernal / Dark souls / trinket etc)

Aimed Shot is 248 % of the attack power in physical damage, that mean it’s reduced by armor and that damage cannot be upgraded . Can be enhanced by 2 enhanced spell ( Double tap ( double your last Aimed shot or Rapid fire) or Trueshot ( reduce the CD of Rapid Fire and Aimed shot and the cast time of your aim shot).

the point is a warlock with full enhancement cast the same number of Chaos Bolt than a Marskmanship hunter freecast (both).
But for 4 cast of Chaos Bolt and 4 cast of Aimed shot ( 8 seconds) :

  • Warlock will get (Chaos bolt to 594% x damage azerite trait (i will not count this) + 30% ) x 4 = 3 088,8% spell power in damage pure
  • Hunter will get (Aimed Shot 248% - 35 % armor) x 4 = 646,88 % of attack power

So for 4 cast of Chaos Bolt and 4 cast of Aimed Shot , the warlock destruction is stronger by 4,774 time above the Marksmanship.

Considering that warlock is OP in the actual state. it mean that we can reduce the multiplier (4,774) necessary to make Marksmanship viable by rethrieving 1,5 of that multiplier to make MM hunter join the actual Meta.

And since it’s not interrumptable spell we reduce by 1 the multiplier

2,274

This is the multiplier the marksmanship need in PvP to be able to get correct damage on Arena.

Since it’s a channelled ability, you just have to CC Rapid fire in order that all the 225k damage dissapear and the Marksmanship hunter must spam steady shot ( that deal 16k damage in 1,8 sec) to regen back his focus.
And since Double tap is every minutes, and all classes got CC every minutes it’s already balanced.
And you can still use healing / reduce damage (prismatic barrier / healing / reduction damage ) if the pressure is too hight.

So when it came to the “hight burst” with Trueshot , it should match a burst adapted to the meta.

With all said above, the next patch on BFA ( or maybe shadowland if they keep the same value) must buff the Marksmanship hunter damage in PvP situation to join the balance in PvP up to :

127,4%

TL;DR : To make Marksmanship viable , MM hunter should be buffed to 127,4% of his damage.

2

yeah, thats not gonna happend sorry

3

Destro is > everything. This is a stupid comparison. You basically want mm hunter on the same level of op that destro is on.

I’m fine with making mm viable. But not like this.

4 Likes
4

it’s calculated on don’t worry :

So the result is just to multiply +27,4 % of the MM hunter actual damage to match the meta ( Warlock / DK / Fire / Rogue / DH / WW / Ret etc).
it’s seems a lot +27,4% if we look on PvE dmaage , but from all details screenshot i’ve taken in arena 2V2 this is the value missing when i was full freecast on them.

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4 Likes
6

Play with a healer that can stun.

You can thank me later.

7

Hol… Pri… Shaman and druid heal ofc :smiley:

nah you don’t need especially a stun, just a tiny loose of control is enought.

is that a competition with Idkwhytho" to hurt my feeling :sob: ?

8

Blizzard explained this.

They design balance around how often you’re able to deal it and how reliably.
MM hunter can perma slow target, Aimed Shot is uninterruptable and MM hunter has better mobility.

well, it’s not
you didn’t take into account the context, so it’s like complaining why Crusader Strike doesn’t hit as Greater Pyroblast

9

Pretty much all dps can perma slow. and warlock can perma slow

Calculated in if you read the details.

that match the soul shield the warlock have. So balance.

10

not reasonably, no

maybe defensively, but not offensively
absorb shield doesn’t help you catch up with target
mobility does

that’s why mobility is much more versatile, it can be used for defense, offense and CC… absorb shield can’t

you just made up number, that’s not calculatio
blizzard made up one too, you just don’t like theirs and you have no mathematical basis for yours, it might be your opinion but it can hardly be called “calculated”

1 Like
11

it is ,

But Warlock is OP atm so it solve the issue of mobility.
Aswell you can spam control so it’s easier for you when someone is open map to make him stay in the middle with the control than a hunter than it’s harder.
So it match too.

that why i’m making this topic : they have miscalculated and don’t fix.

No Marksmanship have ever got Gladiator title with Full and ONLY marksmanship.

Where other spec have.

Tell me how there do not miscalculated and Marksmanship is totally viable ? Tell me the whole community need to know when Pro Player and R1 don’t know how to stay more than 25 game above 2k3 as MM hunter

12

Except there are a few errors in your estimations.

For starters, Chaos Bolt doesn’t deal almost 600% spell power, but rather 396%. Chaos Bolt’s base damage is 120% spell power, which is enhanced to 240% (hence the multiply by 2 in the equation) due to being a guaranteed crit. That total amount is then enhanced by 65%.
In the case of a warlock having 10,000 intellect, a Chaos Bolt would deal:

10,000 * 2 * 1.2 * 1.65 = 39.600 damage

Resulting in:

39.600/100 = 396% spell power damage.
This is of course not mentioning the 25% crit damage reduction in PvP.

It’s true that Chaos Bolt has a crit scaling, which is estimated to be 1% increased damage per % critical strike, as seen here

https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/spell/chaosbolt?spec=WarlockDestruction&version=live

I checked both Dakkroth and Swapxy for their crit rating, and both sit on 13% crit. Then there’s stuff like mastery scaling, and is probably the real reason for Chaos Bolt’s massive hits.

A Chaos Bolt from Swapxy, would result in:

Intellect * base line scaling * crit * Focused Chaos * Crit chance * Mastery * crit damage reduction

14,293 * 1.2 * 2 * 1.65 * 1.13 * 1.8 * 0.75

Min mast dmg increase = 86,343
Max mast dmg increase = 124,718

And that’s why Chaos Bolt can’t really be compared to anything in terms of damage. It’s two worlds apart. Once you factor in more scalings like azerite traits, on use trinkets and grimoire, it becomes even more ridiculous.

Furthermore, comparing 2 abilities and using that as your argument for why a spec should be buffed is not really ideal. As far as I know, Aimed Shot isn’t even MM’s highest damaging ability, nor can it be compared to Chaos Bolt due to being non-interruptable.

Marksmanship, in my opinion, needs a complete redesign or more tools to help it do setups and land damage. Stuff like being able to land freezing trap, castable Aimed Shots while moving, ignoring LoS briefly through a setup spell etc.
Penetrating a % amount of armor somehow I’m open for as well.

2 Likes
13

well yes it is
and you want a class to be even more broken because you want it to have same damage while it also retains all other benefits that Warlock doesn’t have

tell me then, how can a Warlock reasonably slow target?

where did they miscalculate? they just made up different numbers
you compare two uncomparable things, so you made up number and assigned it to that… well they made up one too, and you don’t like theirs
if you don’t like theirs, it’s not miscalculation, it’s simply you not liking it

14

i don’t think wowhead whould have written the 2 * multiplicator for crit since crits is 150% damage ( than PvE when it’s 200% damage) but may be wroing in description of the spell on wowhead if that so. Usually they don’t mess up those thing.

396% is the non crit spell value, that why i taken 596% that is the crit value in PvP ( 150% damage, so 396 x 1,5 = 596 ).

yea that why i do not make 396% x 2 but 396 x 1,5(150% so that your -25% effectiveness in PvP) and got the result of 596%.

the tooltips value isn’t crit . It’s show the damage value non crit and in the tooltips it said it always crit.
Done test on live on my warlock tooltips isn’t critted.

so it’s 14,293 * 1.2 * 2 * 1.65 * 1.13 * 1.8 * 1.5

Depend on where you put the Double tap situation . the damage is

  • 30% rapid fire
  • 30% aimed shot
  • 30% arcane shot ( why arcane shot that hight ? ehhhh… it pierce armor so that where it come from, against plate it’s 44,5% of my damage when the toolkit tell me arcane shot is 16k damage + 75% with precise shot :joy:)
  • 10% other tiny stuff like enchant and auto attack without the Double tap.

The double tap make Aim Shot or Rapid fire in top of damage.

Because of our azerite trait we are forced to use Rapid fire to “try to kill” to deal 225k ( maximum damage i ever reached against cloth) on target but that spell is more fragile tan chaos bolt since it’s a channeled ability with 1 CC or shadowmelt ruin the whole burst of MM hunter so when you go above 2K1 clearly Double Tap Rapid fire is a dream when it come fully channeled ( but easy as to counter a chaos bolt. but when interrumpted chaos bolt you can recast it 6 sec after when Double tap + RF you need 1 mn and that kinda suck when it’s our only window damage .

So RF damage is way too easy to counter.

That why i reduced the difference before in term of damage.

Actually the armor mess up everything on MM hunter. We gonna get a solve of survibility with binding shot baseline in shadowland but if the value aren’t changed ( max +25 % ) we will become as same as BFA (the only big change is covenant ability that might save us and a +25% crit on aim shot as talent, that all).

Actually it’s easy to set up trap as MM hunter, never got difficulty with it ( yea when i switched back warrior → hunter it was hard, but now as main hunter it’s easy as well warrior use fear).

It’s optionnal, that not that that make us not viable. It was good yea but that not the issue in my opinion since i land like 90% of the time my aim shot, just a question of position.

That why they added Rapid Fire as Channeled ability so we got 3 sec we can channel that ability while moving ( channeled ability don’t stop the channel while ennemy LoS the caster).

I’m quite up for that too since there’s no way for a MM hunter to beat a DK actually ( exept if the DK is bad but a DK that set death strike roll on the MM hunter).
And making ranged damage not blockable again ( since 8.1 ranged damage can be blocked, yea PvP nerf for MM just in order to balance PvE SoB dungeon for Pal / War tank :sweat:

15

Well we can always just ask mr. robot :slight_smile:
https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/spell/chaosbolt?spec=WarlockDestruction&version=live

Base Damage = 1.2 * Spell Power

WoWHead only has a * 2 factor because it’s a guaranteed critical strike.

I’m really against just giving MM more damage baseline, it’ll honestly annihilate cloth and leather users completely. You need a way to penetrate armor to streamline it more.
Otherwise there’s always the arms treatment where Aimed Shot leaves a strong bleed afterwards.

Ever seen those multiboxing MM hunters that bring 2 or 3 with them to arena? It’d be like that except with 1 MM hunter if you got a flat damage increase.

16

i doesn’t ask to be OP , as say in OP if you have read carefully :

I never asked Souls shield for MM hunter + mobility. Mobility is fine for me and is enought.

Succubus.
I see it coming :

  1. succubus can seduce in a CC form 6 sec, same duration than interrumpt
  2. succubus perma slow.

Because i try to calculate with their number and found that MM hunter is calculated without the Hearth of Azeroth Equipped. And there MM hunter would be balance in term of dmg and thing. But it’s not calculated with it so all the number is all trash.
Since Hearth of azeroth give 18% + stamina + conflict and strife it’s very close to the buff nedded of MM hunter that need 27,4% more damage in order to be balanced.

I compared this both since it’s very close spell ( when looking to other classes ) and the kill set up is merely the same with Destru/MM .

“If the spec is totally trash atm and not viable at all, it’s simply you do not liking it , not miscalculation”

dude if no MM hunter reached above 2K350 with MM hunter only, that mean All the community of wow is just bad at PvP and 1 develloper at blizzard know how to reach 2K6 as MM hunter ?

As Ion said : “Sometime we unfix some thing” and MM hunter is in that case. and i want to make it change.

17

Actually Mattaso and I agree on 1 point = We beat Cloth and Leather people because 95% of the player don’t know how MM hunter work"

When i kill people because they don’t look when i’m on Double tap or not and when they are 45% health and i’m bursting they don’t trade CD that their mistake. As well as you don’t trade CD against Dark souls / combustion / Empowered rune weapon / Vendetta etc .

yes and no. I agree against Hpal / elem&resto Shaman / death knight to pierce armor but against warrior we are fine actually with a good kitting ( even if i rage often on the bleed the bleed make the MM hunter kitting balanced in term of damage so that fine).

Multi-boxing is not a reference :joy:

You can make that with Boomkin / Destru warlock your idea on it will be the same, only the name of the class with change.

18

I checked this. And it’s a simulator based on SimC. That mean it use a SimulationCraft framework ( like a library of code you use for your programms). And Simulation craft is taking only PvE situation.

that mean they consider since the start that your crit is 200% damage .

Actually in my knowledge there’s no simulator updated for PvP dps. All simulator is based for PvE because they are all based on the framework of Simulation craft.

if you want to know more about simulationCraft = http://simulationcraft.org/

That mean askMr.robot is on PvE situation already.

So that the PvE number.

So wowhead didn’t have it wrong :slightly_smiling_face:

19

An equation is an equation, whether it’s PvP or PvE :slight_smile:
PvP merely has a law stating crit damage is reduced by 25%.

Aka PvE total crit damage * 0.75 = PvP total crit damage, not taking PvP tuning into account of course.

Personally, I’d say non-buffed CBs hitting between 80k-120k sounds realistic, I don’t think anything is wrong there :slight_smile:

20

With mastery corruption up yes. Otherwise no. Rather 50k-70k.

But in the end CB unbuffed isn’t an issue. It’s the corruptions and the fact that vision of perfection causes infernals instead of like… Dark Sould (i know it’s a talent but it would be more reasonable to take this talent for vision than infernals…). Those infernals again can stack supremacy to 20 stacks…

It’s a lot of factors and single things that all benefit lock in some way. And some of them benefit them so heavily that it kinda gets out of control.

1 Like