Why does Mythic need more restrictions than Heroic?

Community General Discussion
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12/11/2018 00:24Posted by Dejarous
So you want all the benefits of organised group content without putting in any effort.

Were people this entitled back in Vanilla from whence you came?


Please explain how pugs fall in the category of "organised group content". If anything they're the exact opposite. So much for entitlement...
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It's about competition on the highest level of PvE. It lets top end guilds to compete for who is the best and fastest to a clear and lower tier guilds to compete if they can get it cleared at all during the season.

The group size restriction exists because every boss on mythic is balanced for 20-man group. What this means is that every group has an equal challenge, equal dps-breakpoint to meet, equal group-composition restrictions and so forth.

You may say that no one cares about personal glory in PvE but these people do care. Mythic is for those people that enjoy working together and overcoming these restrictions and their challenges. Like people already said, it's the pinnacle of PvE content, the hardest challenge in the game.

It's not meant for individual players who don't care for group play or being tied in a specific group. It's intentionally not meant for those people. It caters to a specific crowd.
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12/11/2018 00:24Posted by Dejarous
So you want all the benefits of organised group content without putting in any effort.

Were people this entitled back in Vanilla from whence you came?


No idea where I said this. I want people to fail at Mythic pugs because of the difficulty, not because of the arbitrary restrictions like cross realm/instance locks.

12/11/2018 01:15Posted by Papudeath
...

That's their own fault. Do you think pugs are capable of progressing on a mythic boss for +100 potential wipes? No. That's the reason they can't clear the raid, not the lockout.


Look at bosses like G'huun, that already happens in Heroic so there's no reason to assume it wouldn't in Mythic.

Don't assume people who want to pug are lazy, entitled or low-tier players, when in reality a lot of them just don't like being tied to a single group or being in a guild.

[quote]
Bottom line: changing the way the lockout works would make mythic easier. We should just call it heroic+ if that was the case. If it's too challenging for pugs, too bad, maybe they should organize themselves better.


Shouldn't the difficulty in Mythic raiding be within the content and the coordination needed to complete it? Not arbitrary restrictions on groups and who can play with each other?

12/11/2018 04:04Posted by Boozeboi
Let's say, that in some very weird scenario, Blizzard would actually let this happen. Then what's gonna happen? Nothing much really, you'd just get a worse version of Heroic pugging. Bosses are harder, and even guilds are struggling on many as we speak.

Second, people will, just like in Heroic pugs, probably leave after a couple of wipes. Guess what, you can go back to finding people again, because it doesn't share the group flexibility of Heroic and Normal.... Preferring this instead of raiding with a guild, I'm sorry, but who hurt you?


If you don't think pugs would be able to do Mythic why do you care so much? Let them try and fail :)


You saying that people stay for 100+ wipes on HC Ghuun is a total lie. Not even at the start of the raid people did it.
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12/11/2018 00:24Posted by Dejarous
So you want all the benefits of organised group content without putting in any effort.

Were people this entitled back in Vanilla from whence you came?


Yes, yes we were.

Nobody paid attention though, everyone was busy playing.
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12/11/2018 00:24Posted by Dejarous
So you want all the benefits of organised group content without putting in any effort.

Were people this entitled back in Vanilla from whence you came?


We ready to put effort into beating said content and doing so having a handicap of less organised group. If we manage to do so - reward is rightfully ours if not - then not. We just do not wanna to put up with current bureaucracy system.
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I am actually all for cross realm mythic raiding. The community is so small that having to server hop every time they look for a guild is really frustrating.
As for ID lockouts, I'm indifferent. I don't think that any decent person would not commit to a raid group if he/she wasn't ID locked. But I can understand why it is there.
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Maybe they just want people to commit to guilds, which are a staple of the game since its inception. Maybe they want to promote team play, where you don't kick people just because they are easily replaced, or you don't ditch groups when they can't take you further. Maybe they want something to be as exclusive to a classic way of playing as possible. Maybe they don't want players in guilds getting lured by a kill in some group and not showing up for their own guild progress for the week anymore. Maybe not everything is supposed to be pugged.

Who knows?
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i can understand both viewpoints.. but ppl have to agree that the dungeon finder and raid finder makes no sense anymore..

and this is not because of casuals.. its because blizzard wanted to add another level of difficulity and then +xx extra levels to the dungeon system, because they are hoping it will be an $Esport$ some day..

the problem is that when u put so many extra levels in, the baseline experince gonna be so watered down and easy, that it makes no sense 2-3 weeks after an expansion..

they need to atleast add Basic Mythic difficulity to the tool... it would only help the so called pugs to get better and more ready to do Mythic+
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Well probably the best argument I can offer from my perspective why Mythic raiding should not have a Raid ID lockout is the fact that I’m currently not playing the game, but have out of boredom wandered onto the forum to see what’s up with this decision.

I don’t see why Blizzard would give us a taste of the freedom (by allowing non-lockout raiding until HC) and then create conditions which make it virtually impossible to continue the experience. This is a mixed message and it reduces the smoothness of gameplay. I’ve worked hard to clear HC content through pugs and have done so a week before one of the best guilds on the server got the G’huun kill. I was in the guild at the moment so its not hear say and its not about playing with overgeared players and being carried since it was going on when few actually had Ahead of the curve.

The fact is that players have no real information about this decision. We do not know the statistics on how many guilds are currently raiding Mythic content and whether statistically speaking the lockout is aiding them to clear this high end content. From personal experience I can only say that the lockout led our guild to discontinue weekly Mythic raids precisely because we can’t find the players. Here we also have no information on how many guilds there are in the same situation.

The comment about keeping the competition alive should take into account there are highscore lists which take care of that and removing lockouts does not really affect this. All content is for everyone so I can’t really understand the argument saying that Mythic is reserved for high-end players because this is a question of identity. What if someone defines themselves as a high-end pugger showing everyone that he/she can clear the most difficult content with a group of random people. Pug Mythic is for sure more tasking and difficult than organized Mythic raids because of raid coordination. Precisely in those pug situations you can see the quality of leaders, much more then in a situation where 19 people come to a raid to be led by a single person whose authority they already respect and trust. Personally, I’ve prepared more for pugs then for any guild raid. Why? Because you have to in order to win. Pugs have their own dynamic and they have their own novel identity just as those old entrenched guild-focused raids do as well. Claims that Mythic pugs will always fail is misinformed at best. We have Taloc and Mother pug clears happening as if they are a joke. Sure a lot will fail, but so do guild runs.

Additionally, what really strucks a chord with me are those comments about guilder elitism. How precisely does a puggers clearing of Mythic content diminish the value of a guilders experience? This is stereotyping. Puggers face the same boss with the same abilities and difficulties. The effort put in organizing a guild raid is lesser then organizing a good pug. The guild raiding experience is aided by the game at every step. Guilds have their own part of the UI, they have a shared bank, shared communications channels, additional addons etc. etc. How is that harder then having none of that (as pugs don’t) and still clearing the content? This is the challenge I respect. Clearing high end with random players that organize themselves good enough on the spot. Thats a high and a rush the guilds just don’t have anymore (and yes this is just my own feeling, I know).

I would argue that somewhere here we should take into account the money argument about which we have no information also. How does this situation bring in more cash for Blizzard? Again, here we can only offer assumptions (if you have real info do please contribute). Payed server transfers from players looking for a good raiding guild experience is one possible explanation, but we have no info to be sure about this.

My opinion is that we are right there where Blizzard wants us since they do have the data, and we do not.

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Hello!

Earlier today i was logging into WoW after a long day of work, and thinking i would play WoW and raid Uldir and try to progress for a few hours.

(Im currently at 2/8 Mythic)

I queued and entered a grp that already had killed ZEK before, but were missing a person for a second kill.

So far so good.

I got instantly teleported, accepted the raid lock of 2/8 M and waited around 1min to hear that the raid leader had found a IRL friend coming after all…

So i was kicked from the grp, saved to that raid lock… This obviously made me mad (but not at the raid leader who kicked me (i can totally understand that) but at the current system that allows this to happen…

Currently im working shift, not being able to join a guild and attend scheduled progressing raiding… Im already at a disadvantage since im a pug, why make the disadvantage even more with the current raid lock system?

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