And looking at S3 content for M+ your logic doesn’t make sense
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is here to stay
they are updating other models to also use dragonflying because they’re going to carry dragonflying forward as the new way to fly
considering thats the only real hard criticism you drop I don’t know man
can you go a bit deeper into what you consider to be gimicky? for me it’d be the maze in the ardenweald dungeon for example where you have to match symbols, felt like a gimick that was just there to throw a wrench in a potential groups pace
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Why not? Because they added Dawn of the infinite to the M+ pool? I’d say that only furthers my point, since they had to split the dungeon into two parts, to make it fit the M+ formula.
Was split for HC in S2, the split for M+ is a simple follow-up to avoid having 1h+ dungeon run
And they simplified mechanics for it, which for me is a big no but whatever that’s not the topic of this discussion
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Nah that’s the way to go. People who play the dungeon for loot or just experience the gameplay want it to be like that.
You probably want quick experience/quest credit/augment runes which isn’t the point of the dungeons. They’re incentives to have more people queuing.
If the boss is skipable then it shouldn’t be there in the first place (except for the now rare bonus bosses but that’s not what we’re talking about).
I wish. If that was the case we wouldn’t have freehold/motherlode skips.
Extremely noticeable with this season M+ pools from legacy content. You can immediately tell the difference from then to now.
Dungeon is designed around dragon aka dynamic flying and within expansion theme. Was also one of the better dungeon of the expansion. Since this is here to stay I don’t think its gimmicky at all. In fact I am disappointed there was not a PvP map introduced with this dragon flying.
You sir lack foresight. Its not a “gimmick” that gives player power. Its sort of like when Flying mounts were introduced in TBC. Those are still around… 
And dragon riding looks like its here to stay. Although maybe they should change the name for future expansions.
You are 100% entitled to not like some dungeons. Its not like you have to like them.
I personally hate the packs of the elemental boss in Nokud. They hit hard and in S1 they used to 1-shot people and it was annoying.
But comparing DF dungeons to a 20 year old expansion and having the guts to say that they were exceptional…
ROLF !!! You remember them as such. They were not in reality. Pure nostalgia right there.
Go play classic if you like them more.
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I would prefer we didn’t have to use Dragon Riding in any dungeon or raid but other than that I’ve not had any major complaints about DF dungeons.
As they aren’t in the M+ pool I rarely see them now though 
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When was that ?
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Thats because legion happened. Legion introduced mythic plus. So after that all dungeons were designed around m+ instead of being fun.
Legion destroyed so many good things
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I can’t really speak to the quality of dungeons these days as I tend not to do them so much. Next patch with AI team mates I’ll check out the current ones. Also this is a subjective thing generally.
But one thing is that dungeons are all designed around M+ now so they all need to be roughly the same length and provide alternate routes and skips to increase the replayability.
This probably is leading to a more uniformity of design.
Also when it comes to Wrath dungeons, I must say The Oculus was terrible for random groups. Was ok when I did it with friends.
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dragonflight dungeons are really bad except algethar academy tbh but the dragonriding part is not true that’s the main flight method from now on . bfa dungeons are peak of wow’s dungeon design .
Normal and heroic is for that. They are in the dungeon finder with a queue (I know I can enter from the entrance too).
Mythic shouldn’t be locked as it is in the Premade groups tab. When forming the group the party leader can put what ever requirements he wants . The Time walking shouldn be as Mythic. People use it to finish as fast as possible the 5 dungeons quest or speed leveling alts.
Having the option to skip is a good thing for me.
Dynamic flying is second best addition to wow with new talent trees being first best
.
Waycrest manor boss that forces you to switch your current target many times was atrocius, until recently dungeons in general were designed without specific damage profiles of some classes in mind.
Also breaking LoS on first atal’dazar boss is boring
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I think ARR dungeons are lil boring, visually and mechanically
Mechanically it doesn’t get really better IMO, but there are narrative brilliants like amaurot and dead ends that leave very good aftertaste for a really long time
Maybe it should have been a 1hr+ run? whats wrong with that? My point is that dungeons nowadays are tailored for M+, You are never gonna see dungeons like BRD, Stratholme, Violet Hold or the Occulus again, and Old dungeons like Scarlet Monestary, BRS and Uldaman get overhauled to fit the formula. All dungeons now must have 3-5 bosses and very carefully placed trash to fit the M+ model. This hinders creativity in dungeon design and story telling through dungeons.
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I think Dragonflight is just an MVP – Minimum Viable Product.
Dungeons are a good example.
There are 8 standard and a Mega Dungeon split into 2.
That feels like the lowest number Blizzard can make for a new expansion without it being noticeably too few.
The design seeks to save development resources where ever it’s possible.
Take The Nokhud Offensive. This isn’t really a Dungeon. It’s just the Ohn’ahran Plains turned into an instance. That’s why you use Dragonflying. Not as a gimmick feature, but as a necessity for traversing the entire zone – which is what you’re doing.
The bosses are also just the finale of different questlines. There’s nothing that binds them together as a cohesive story.
So no real development resources have gone into this instance, but on paper it’s still an instance.
Ruby Life Pools is the same. It just uses the zone design as an instance. It’s not really a dungeon. Again, you get transported and move around in weird ways because it’s not a Dungeon layout. It’s an outdoor zone area.
Brackenhide Hollow and Algeth’ar Academy are the same. Outdoor zones turned into instances. No real Dungeon layout, just random bosses scattered around the area.
And then there’s Uldaman: Legacy of Tyr which also just re-uses the assets of the old Uldaman and slaps some Titan interior assets on for the final boss room. New Dungeon? Eh…
That leaves Neltharus, Halls of Infusion, and The Azure Vault as the only real Dungeons where Blizzard have obviously put a good amount of development resources into.
Strong interior design. Proper Dungeon layout. Unique sound, music, and voice acting. Proper storylines. Relevant bosses.
They’re standard quality Dungeons as one would expect in World of Warcraft. They hold up to comparisons of other Dungeons in recent expansions. But it’s only 3 out of 8.
And it’s a bit the same with the Mega Dungeon, Dawn of the Infinite.
It’s 8 bosses split into two. The Dungeons rely on a lot of transport and boss areas because it saves development resources. It’s cheaper to have a dragon fly players from one boss to the other than it is to develop a sprawling dungeon layout with unique interior design.
Again, it’s the absolute least that a Mega Dungeon could be.
Any less than 8 bosses and players would be critical.
And the interior layout only just fits the 8 bosses, so that’s the least it can be. The use of portals is a novel but extreme way to save development resources.
So that’s basically it.
Once you recognize that Dragonflight is a Minimum Viable Product, then it’s easier to understand why, for example, Dungeons feel a bit underwhelming or short of their full potential.
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People don’t really appreciate dungeons you can get lost in, it increases the chance of the tank ragequitting. It doesn’t work for random groups, and WoW is past its phase of making organized groups for normal dungeons.
Good, worst dungeon in the game. Didn’t stop them from reusing it in Legion even though they introduced m+ then.
Scarlet Monsastery was updated in MoP. Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep were updated in Cata and they follow the same formula.
They don’t do it because of m+, they do it because it’s the formula that works.
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I don’t mind if they save resources if they manage to make a good dungeon. Azure Vault and Halls of Infusion are probably the most PITA dungeons of the expansion, I’d rather run Algethar or Uldaman any day of the week.
I hate Nokhud and Brackenhide but that’s due to their themes (centaurs and puke), not their layouts.
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That’s an oxymoron if I ever saw one.
From Blizzard’s perspective as developers, what do you think the main ingredient for making a “good dungeon” is?