Why I feel like Quitting the Lore For Good.

12/11/2018 17:17Posted by Durlan
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This.


it is seriously becoming annoying at this point to be frank.


Isn't that a bit hypocritical coming from both of you who have crtiqued the story and decesions yourselves in many areas. Why come out with this now? Because you don't agree with the reasons why someone is being disheartened by the story telling?

Do you not want better story telling? Whether people are confused about what's happening or not, they feel the way they feel, and there is a reason, it's a pretty large sentiment too out there, everyone having their gripes.

It's one thing not to like how things go lore wise, it's another thing when the lore itself changes, or it forgets a certain aspect. I fell in love with a magical night elven race, and the wonder of their arcane and long vigil eras, a star focused group, a titanic race, cool, badass, full of magic, wonder, badass female amazonian type warriors - i thought were cool, druids who woke up trees, talked to animals and grew breathtaking forests, arcane wielders who reached a phenomenal height with magic, and built great and breathtaking cities and landscapes with arcane and nature magic 10,000 years ago, and some of htem surviving and getting redeemed from the arrogance and addiction that plagued them. Edgy, badass demon hunters, at the top of their game, tattooed, and pretty on the ball about a lot of things, having the beautiful contrast of a noble heart fighting even to the extent he would allow his beautiful body to be corrupt with that vile, foul but powerful magic - not to lord it over people and dominate them by force - but to destroy the greatest evil that ravaged their people, destroyed all that was beautiful and good, saving them and their world.

I mean, everywhere i looked was an incredible people - gifted in the arcane, gifted in nature magic, and wielding fel - to heights greater than any other race (that's their main strong suit - other races have incredible strengths in other areas and amazing exploits, these are the night elves'), knowing an actual Goddess and not afraid to act and call upon her (and yes goddess can be personified as female), and being so resolute in their resolve they would go 10,000 years without using magic or rebuilding the beauty they once had to protect the world from the demons and make sure they would do everything in their power even if it meant normal life, happy life, growing and blossoming was infinitely on pause.

A group described as a titanic race, written to defeat the great legion, not once, but twice, first time sacrificing their arcane power, second time their nature power, and being successful. When I saw the sentinels deal with the orcs they met in WC3, I was like wow! These guys are no joke, they're serious, not the soft elf you see, and i was amazed that they certainly had a soft side within their community, but when it came to serious threats, they were no -nonsense, dangerous and ruthless, quick to act, no hesistation, fierce and even savage in that. I loved it. Look at the garb of the druids, sentinels and nightborne - the war gear, it has a primal vibe to it despite their great age, degree of learning and civilization - such a contrast.

And what did i get in wow? lots of neglect - insight into druid lore for classic - then nothing relevant and very minor token showings for druids until Cataclysm, where a little progress was made with the sentinels and highborne...but..but..but, night elves not written with respect, but trashed in Cataclysm, no attempt to properly show them like they're described, till 12 years after classic's release... 12 years ... till the Legion expansion, which they again get abandoned only half way through (a rag tag half of 7.1, then out of the picture in 7.2 and nowhere to be seen in 7.3)

The list goes on as listed in the first post, if they didn't come out with Legion, i'd just have stopped playing altogether, and if it wasn't for the 8.1 changes to darkshore, i'd not have renewed my subscription.

But even with those, there are all the other glaring issues, when they sit down and use human heroes instead of more appropriate ones of another race for the job. I mean no problem with Turalyon or Khadgar, but couldn't another non-velen draenei hero be there with him or a night elven highborne take over from khadgar for some of the stuff that directly related to elves in Legion (like meeting the Demon Hunters out of the vault, introducing us to Azsuna and Suramar). Thalyssra actually running from Jaina in the Stormwind escape implying she can't take her on (a 10k+ year old night elven arcanist who didn't stop using the arcane). Tyrande and the order of Elune, awol completely for the broken shore and Cathedral of Eternal night.

You see, it is not that night elves got beaten or even kicked out of Kalimdor that's bad. I understand that is part of the story, and stories can have lows, even though i think it was over picking on the night elves after all they'd made them go through - it is that the night elves don't get any highs - they go from all that wonderful stuff sold to us in WC3, and WotA trilogy, then in the novels Stormrage/Wolfheart/Illidan - and then strip them of all the really amazing stuff, almost re-writing them, and when they hit them hard, where is the lift up? Where is the highs they get that match the degree of low or surpass the degree of low?

Blood elves lose the sunwell, they not only get it back, but get back empowered and infused with light energy as well. Night elves lose their entire civilizaiton, lose their Well of eternity, lose their immortality, lose , lose, lose - lands, World tree, forest, lives - what they get back? Where are the new lands, or new well ? or new world tree or better world to make up? Vol'jin dies, i bet he becomes a Loa god, Sylvanas loses warchief? I bet she becomes something close to lich queen,

AND YES. NIGHT ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES SUFFERING FROM THIS - but that mere fact tells you something is bad with the story.

Night elves show up in cataclysm, they are trashed by horde, out magicked by the horde, out archered by the horde, out forested by the horde, it's not that they had to lose stuff, it's how they lost it - they are written like muppets, silly, weak, not bright at all, and little father christmas elves not able to pull anything off.

The night elves in the novel, would have been damn hard to beat, and successful because they were greatly overwhelmed but they would have made the horde pay dearly , very dearly - i mean horde rogues out stealthing a druid in his own forest, like really?

Oh but its hard to write a race when they're so powerful ? Don't see any problems with orcs or humans the OP'd little f***s, the comic hero writers seem to be able to pull off amazing and incredible groups quite well, despite their extraordinary powers, so it's not like it can't be done.
Perhaps the focus on the night elves is twisting the core of distress, however its also a host of other things, that long in short i'd really like them to try harder about - especially with those jarring u-turns and retcons.

You have no idea what would be retconneed nexxt, or u-truend over or written in decline.

I think night elf fans can sympathise with me here, once its happened to something you really like, your feelings will change.
13/11/2018 21:46Posted by Kalibas
I think night elf fans can sympathise with me here, once its happened to something you really like, your feelings will change.


Thing is, it already -has- happened to others. Kaldorei and Forsaken were due a smack. Most of the other races have already had their smack, in some case -before- the game even started, like Trolls, Gnomes, Blood Elves, Draenei, Worgen, Goblins, There are a few races who deserved, or rather were due a smack. Orcs ( They got theirs in MoP) Dwarves, still pretty intact, Humans (Plot Armoured to the max) Forsaken (Just got a smack) Kaldorei (Just got a smack), Tauren (They got theirs in Cataclysm), Oh, and Trolls just got a second Smack.

I ask again, What makes the Night Elf Playerbase so special, that they should not suffer setbacks. You should be angry at Alliance Bias, not Horde Bias. You've got two Untouchable races there, one which has -ridiculous- Plot armour, I mean we Know Stormwind still exists 70 years in the future, we know High King Anduin does. I mean he and Velen are the only two characters we can say this of with certainty. No one else.

We don't even know if there -is- a Horde 70 years in the future, so the Alliance itself could be said to have absolute plot armour. I mean we don't see any Horde in that ill thought out but still canon 'Son of the Wolf'

What makes the Night Elf Playerbase so deserving of some special protection?
13/11/2018 23:18Posted by Brigante
What makes the Night Elf Playerbase so deserving of some special protection?


They have suffered the most in such a short time frame, and have served as punching bags throughout WoW life time? Perhaps that is why they deserve more treatment than others currently?

No other race has suffered in WoW as much as the Night Elves and every other race who has suffered has been repayed in some way (from WoWs timeframe). You mention the Orcs in MoP, what did they actually lose from this? A couple of leaders? Yet they somehow managed to gain more land from the war.

The Night Elves have constantly been slapped around, Fandal going rogue, Ashenvale and Stonetalon in a state of all out war. We gave you Azshara for no good reason. CC staying neutral even now, won't help with bloody refugees.

Now, Ashenvale (in some sources) is been razed killing every Night Elf in the area, Darkshore has just been ruined and Teldrassil has been touched with arguably the majority of its population. This is in the timeframe of 3 weeks and it was done so poorly that it makes me question how this was ever approved.

Compare this to the Forsaken, or any other playable race in WoW. Do you see a difference yet?

The Night Elves have suffered set backs throughout WoW, to think otherwise is just ignorance. Now the Night Elves are a "dying race" who are living as refugees because not even the CC will take care of its own people. Nor will their Wild Gods protect them and only now is Elune doing something to help of followers.

What have the Night Elves got out of this? A new customization option for eyes and a mini zone rework in Darkshore for both sides to have... Damn ain't we lucky..

Sure other races do deserve treatment such as the Gnomes, but this is a deflection of answering why the Night Elves don't deserve this. I wonder if this is the other way round people would still have the same opinion considering it is mainly Horde players what seem to have this opinion.
13/11/2018 23:18Posted by Brigante
You should be angry at Alliance Bias, not Horde Bias.


Oi, everyone aboard the bias train!!!
The story is going downhill, even my 6yr old niece can make a better story than this abomination.
13/11/2018 23:18Posted by Brigante
Humans (Plot Armoured to the max)

Yeah Humans never really suffered anything really. It's not like most of their Kingdoms & cities got completely destroyed even before Wow started.

It's funny how you talk about Tauren getting a "smack" in cataclysm (like what? Taurajo?), but Nethergarde, Theramore, Southshore and many others don't count as a Human "smack".

And Bloodelves???? Wasn't their """smack""" a result of Humans getting "smacked"????

Holy Moly the hypocrisy is astonishing.

You talk about bias, but the only thing that is horribly biased here is you.

13/11/2018 23:18Posted by Brigante
I mean he and Velen are the only two characters we can say this of with certainty. No one else.

Blizzard never retcons anything whenever they make some comic, it is 100% set in stone and cannot change. What? Medan? Who's that?
13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
They have suffered the most in such a short time frame, and have served as punching bags throughout WoW life time? Perhaps that is why they deserve more treatment than others currently?


Other races have suffered catastrophic tragedies in shorter time frames, and some over even more protracted time frames. I am not saying they don't deserve treatment in terms of snapping back and gaining ground, they absolutely do, and from the very title of the next patch, look to be going to get it. Good!

I am saying that the current trend for bewailing their fate, and even outright people saying "Blizzard hate Night Elves" is just bizarre.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
No other race has suffered in WoW as much as the Night Elves and every other race who has suffered has been repayed in some way (from WoWs timeframe). You mention the Orcs in MoP, what did they actually lose from this? A couple of leaders? Yet they somehow managed to gain more land from the war.


Not really. Gnomes for one. What have they clawed back? Also, Lorewise the Orcs had to cede land after SoO (Ashenvale for one, though for questing reasons it is still stuck in Cata times), and suffered a massive loss of face, a damaging thing to a Warrior Culture, they suffered such a blow to their prestige that even to this day, they are not trusted by the rest of the Horde to solely police their -own- Capital, instead -having- to share this with the Darkspear and the Tauren, the two races they so sorely oppressed during the Horde Civil War.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
CC staying neutral even now, won't help with bloody refugees.

Them staying neutral I can see, them not helping with refugees makes no damned sense at all, I agree.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
Now, Ashenvale (in some sources) is been razed killing every Night Elf in the area


I very much doubt that. Sylvanas' invasion was not a slow methodical approach, scouring the land for Night Elves and killing them. It was a Blitzkrieg, with a specific objective to be attained as quickly as possible. The united Horde Armies steamrollered in, against a fraction of the Kaldorei alone, and even then were not occupying land (apart from old Horde bases and locations on their route), but pressing on, as fast as they could.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
Teldrassil has been touched with arguably the majority of its population.


We don't know. We don't know how many died. I Imagine it was an awful lot, but not the majority of the Kaldorei population.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
This is in the timeframe of 3 weeks and it was done so poorly that it makes me question how this was ever approved.


What has the timeframe to do with it? Nations have fallen in shorter timespans in our real world history, We can't claim it as bad writing when there are real life precedents. I mean how long do you think the fall of Gnomeregan took? or Quel'thalas? The United Horde attack, against a portion of the Kaldorei army alone, was a Blitzkrieg, by -definition- those are fast campaigns comprising extreme violence along a particular route of march with a specific objective. It is entirely plausible.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
Compare this to the Forsaken, or any other playable race in WoW. Do you see a difference yet?


In answer to the former? No, the Latter? Yes.
The Forsaken got the same treatment. The Alliance steamrollered from the coast, obliterated Brill, presumably killing the civilians there, and besieged Undercity. Now sure, Sylvanas used Scorched Earth tactics, but that is because she is a 'Baddie'. 'Goodies' would never do that. The loss of civilian 'life' in Undercity (Because they won't have had time to get away) would be horrendous, and just like the Kaldorei, we now see that the survivors are now refugees in another city, in the Forsaken case, Orgrimmar.

As to the difference, the major difference I can see, in the case of both the Kaldorei and the Forsaken, is that whilst the other Races had their catastrophe's in lore, or the WC games, the Kaldorei one is happening in-game, in real time, where we can see it, instead of it being a lore event that is described in some text, or acted out by strange pixels bigger than houses.

And -that- is understandable. Do you know one of the biggest reasons for the anti-war movements in our world?

Television. War suddenly wasn't an abstract concept that you read about in the newspapers, or saw grimy footage of cheery soldiers to patriotic music, Vietnam was probably the first televised War, and ever since then, the reality of human conflict is kind of rubbed in your face whenever you turn on a television, and you realise "Blimey, this is just horrible"

So take the Lore, and the WC games as the newspapers and the grimy film footage, but WoW itself as the actual "Oh blimey! This is happening -Now-!"

I think that is a large part of it. Consider the sheer levels of death and devastation in Lordaeron, Quel'thalas, Gnomeregan. Staggering, obscene, beyond comprehension, no one (Including the Kaldorei) has taken such a vast loss in the entire franchise.

Difference is, now we are playing it through in real time. So yes, I do see a difference. It doesn't mean that other races weren't treated as badly.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
What have the Night Elves got out of this?

I don't know yet. You don't know yet. Remember those "Blizzard hate Night Elves" threads when people were bewailing their fate and I actually posted "Nah, you wait and see, they're going back to their roots, the things of forest terrors"

Gods I love being right.

13/11/2018 23:47Posted by Frozenshadow
I wonder if this is the other way round people would still have the same opinion considering it is mainly Horde players what seem to have this opinion.

You're probably asking the wrong person... me, I love a good defiance against the odds, no matter how futile story, I can't -wait- to play the Fall of Quel'thalas scenario. I don't even want the armour set, I just want to play through something that my character would have experienced first hand. I already know that the scenario will end with the humiliating defeat of the Elves and all they hold dear, and bare grim survival. I -love- the fact that the Alliance is going on the warpath and mashing the Horde up big style, with future warfronts in Mulgore, Bilgewater and Silvermoon. Come on, what is not thrilling about such a story? Look at our real world, Battle of Britain, Dunkirk, Agincourt, Thermopylae Xenephon and his 10,000. I mean Thermopylae and Dunkirk were both actually complete defeats, but the story...the story endures.

13/11/2018 23:51Posted by Sheselyn
Oi, everyone aboard the bias train!!!


I know, right, it felt strangely good to be able to use that word when normally we always see it prefaced with 'Horde' Happy times.

Yeah Humans never really suffered anything really. It's not like most of their Kingdoms & cities got completely destroyed even before Wow started.


No, no, I will grant you that, I made the cardinal error of conflating the playable race of Humans, with humanity as a species, mea culpa.

It's funny how you talk about Tauren getting a "smack" in cataclysm (like what? Taurajo?)


I was more referring to the death of their ruler and the occupation of Thunder Bluff by the Grimtotem, the same Grimtotem may I add, who the Alliance were allied with at the time. I mean that is now the starting Tauren character experience, retaking the surrounding areas from the Grimtotem. I refer you to my earlier statement about how things seem more abstract when they are lore, or written in books, than when we actually play them through.

And Bloodelves???? Wasn't their """smack""" a result of Humans getting "smacked"????


Depends whether you regard Arthas as 'Human' I suppose. But yes, the Lordaeronian humans did get a kicking. The Playable race of humans did not. Again, I refer you to the abstract state where we do not play things through and see them happen in WoW, and why the latter engenders more outrage than the former.

Holy Moly the hypocrisy is astonishing.You talk about bias, but the only thing that is horribly biased here is you.


It would be Hypocrisy if I was saying that the destruction of the Night Elf Lands was OK, but the Scourge wrecking Quel'thalas was not. If I was saying that the Alliance taking a smack was OK, but the Horde taking a smack was not.
That is not what I am saying.

Therefore, no, it is not Hypocrisy, or Bias even, the examples I gave were from both Factions.

See how annoying it is when people use the word Bias? Now objecting to someone who mains Horde using the word Bias in connection to the Alliance, and yet when people are quite happy to nod their heads and repeat "yes, Horde Bias"

Now that -is- Hypocrisy.

14/11/2018 11:05Posted by Anouk
Blizzard never retcons anything whenever they make some comic, it is 100% set in stone and cannot change. What? Medan? Who's that?


Has 'Son of the Wolf' been retconned? Until it has, that stands as lore, and is cast iron plot armour.
Also, Lorewise the Orcs had to cede land after SoO (Ashenvale for one, though for questing reasons it is still stuck in Cata times)


Please explain to me, for I can not understand, how can you cede SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND? What claim do the Orcs have to Ashenvale? Did they not get Azshara in recompense?

The Forsaken got the same treatment. The Alliance steamrollered from the coast, obliterated Brill, presumably killing the civilians there, and besieged Undercity. Now sure, Sylvanas used Scorched Earth tactics, but that is because she is a 'Baddie'. 'Goodies' would never do that.


So the Alliance killed civilians, although Sylvanas ordered Saurfang to prepare evacuating her citizens on the evening Teldrassil was burning? That's some nice logic there, lad.

Further more, the gnomes and the blood elves knew what they were signing up for when they began playing Vanilla and TBC. Survivors. Night elves have been reduced to a Horde punching bag that keeps getting saved by human potential. Do you remember Tyrande in a little patience? Do you remember who saves Ashenvale in Wolfheart as Tyrande is wounded?

No other race has received such atrocious portrayal of their leaders, ever. I am not in the "night elves should be gods" camp, but they legitimately have a lot to complain about.

edit: And this way of thinking saying "You shouldn't complain about X because Y happened to someone else" is just insane. Hey, this scenario is moronic, but lets be silent because Gnomes were wiped out before Vanilla. Hey, don't complain about a broken arm, Jeff here broke his leg, what do you have to whine about? Bah.
No, no, I will grant you that, I made the cardinal error of conflating the playable race of Humans, with humanity as a species, mea culpa.

I don't know if you somehow forgot WC1 and 2 but Stormwind's got kind of wrecked by the Horde and they had to flee to Lordaeron. Today's Stowmwind consists not only out of original Stormwinders, but also of survivors of the other Human Kingdoms.

I was more referring to the death of their ruler and the occupation of Thunder Bluff by the Grimtotem, the same Grimtotem may I add, who the Alliance were allied with at the time. I mean that is now the starting Tauren character experience, retaking the surrounding areas from the Grimtotem. I refer you to my earlier statement about how things seem more abstract when they are lore, or written in books, than when we actually play them through.

So it's about the dead leader? Good thing the Stormwind Humans never lost their Lea.. Oh..

Depends whether you regard Arthas as 'Human' I suppose. But yes, the Lordaeronian humans did get a kicking. The Playable race of humans did not. Again, I refer you to the abstract state where we do not play things through and see them happen in WoW, and why the latter engenders more outrage than the former.

Lordaeronians are playable... Either as Forsaken or Humans ingame.
-> In the latest christie Golden book, there was literally a reunion organized between Forsaken and Humans... How the heck do you think they are related, if Lordaeronians don't exist in Stormwind? Maybe you should think first about the stuff you write lmao.

And whether Arthas is a Human or not is absolutely irrelevant.

It would be Hypocrisy if I was saying that the destruction of the Night Elf Lands was OK, but the Scourge wrecking Quel'thalas was not.

I wasn't talking about Humans dude, don't change the subject to Alliance.
You implied that Humans never got """""smacked""""", while you list races that got like 1 bad thing happening to them. This makes you a Hypocrite, because Humans are one of the races that got """"smacked"""" the most.

You have an anti-human bias.

14/11/2018 12:22Posted by Brigante
Until it has, that stands as lore, and is cast iron plot armour.

No it doesn't at all.
Blizzard can and WILL change the story whenever they feel like it.
The part in the comic doesn't mean anything. It could be a red herring or an alternate timeline just as well.
Other races have suffered catastrophic tragedies in shorter time frames, and some over even more protracted time frames. I am not saying they don't deserve treatment in terms of snapping back and gaining ground, they absolutely do, and from the very title of the next patch, look to be going to get it. Good!

I am saying that the current trend for bewailing their fate, and even outright people saying "Blizzard hate Night Elves" is just bizarre.


Ofc' Blizzard don't hate Night Elves, there isn't come grand conspiracy on removing Night Elves or making them suffer etc.. But the treatment of their race throughout WoW and especially now is ridiculous.

After all the hardships the Night Elves have suffered throughout WoW and especially with what happened to them in the WoT they deserve more treatment than most if not all races currently. And Black/Dark Blue eyes aren't enough.

And the time frame for the fall of the Night Elves is stupid and using other examples in game or IRL is irrelevant. The Night Elves in lore could have easily held off a lot of the Horde for the Alliance to get their act together. And the way they lost it is even more bull. Getting out flanked in their own lands.. Don't me me laugh..

Not really. Gnomes for one. What have they clawed back?


That is why I said within WoW's timeframe. Gnomes were refugees from the start, the Night Elves were a empire which is in ruins, their lands destroyed or neutral, their people killed and army in tatters and so on.

Also, Lorewise the Orcs had to cede land after SoO (Ashenvale for one, though for questing reasons it is still stuck in Cata times)


Ashenvale was Night Elf land. The Orcs still had no right to be there yet we did for countless years. And you ended you trading our land in Azshara with our land in Ashenvale.

and suffered a massive loss of face, a damaging thing to a Warrior Culture, they suffered such a blow to their prestige that even to this day, they are not trusted by the rest of the Horde to solely police their -own- Capital, instead -having- to share this with the Darkspear and the Tauren, the two races they so sorely oppressed during the Horde Civil War.


Trolls and Tauren were already large in Org' before Garrosh came to power because Org' was not just founded by the Orcs. And if what you say about their warrior culture is true then how come we haven't seen any ramifications for it? How come the Orcs have learnt nothing from Garrosh and are willingly serve Sylvanas who is worse than Garrosh in near enough every possible aspect?

Them staying neutral I can see, them not helping with refugees makes no damned sense at all, I agree.


Them staying neutral I can't see at all, their forests are being desecrated in Ashenvale and Darkshore. A world tree has burnt down with a lot of their kin in it. Ofc' they would be outrage and pushing for war, Cenarius's children died in this invasion, he should be pissed. All Druids should be pissed and in open revolt at the idea of fighting for Sylvanas.

But neutral factions aren't allowed to help us, they can help you ofc' E.G Bronze Dragonflight but not us..

We don't know. We don't know how many died. I Imagine it was an awful lot, but not the majority of the Kaldorei population.


I'll say the majority of the Night Elf population who are in the Alliance, not around the world.

I very much doubt that. Sylvanas' invasion was not a slow methodical approach, scouring the land for Night Elves and killing them. It was a Blitzkrieg, with a specific objective to be attained as quickly as possible. The united Horde Armies steamrollered in, against a fraction of the Kaldorei alone, and even then were not occupying land (apart from old Horde bases and locations on their route), but pressing on, as fast as they could.


That is why I said depending on the source, from in-game and Wowpedia it said that all of Ashenvale fell and no one (including the civilians) were spared. But Elegy/Good War says a different thing so w/e. Who needs continuity.

The Forsaken got the same treatment. The Alliance steamrollered from the coast, obliterated Brill, presumably killing the civilians there, and besieged Undercity. Now sure, Sylvanas used Scorched Earth tactics, but that is because she is a 'Baddie'. 'Goodies' would never do that. The loss of civilian 'life' in Undercity (Because they won't have had time to get away) would be horrendous, and just like the Kaldorei, we now see that the survivors are now refugees in another city, in the Forsaken case, Orgrimmar.

As to the difference, the major difference I can see, in the case of both the Kaldorei and the Forsaken, is that whilst the other Races had their catastrophe's in lore, or the WC games, the Kaldorei one is happening in-game, in real time, where we can see it, instead of it being a lore event that is described in some text, or acted out by strange pixels bigger than houses.


Sylvanas states after the Burning of Teldrassil that she needs to evacuate the Forsaken. And once the SoL event starts you are evacuating the remaining civilians who are still left during the siege. Brill would have been evacuated before the Alliance arrives along with most if not all of Tirisfal. Sylvanas also chose to kill her own troops and destroy Lordaeron so you can blame that on her.

Compared to the Night Elves this is vastly different. Ashenvale wasn't evacuated and Darkshore/Teldrassil only was during the invasion of Darkshore. They didn't get remotely the same number of people out as the Forsaken did and furthermore their army wasn't being crushed either.

There is a huge difference.

And -that- is understandable. Do you know one of the biggest reasons for the anti-war movements in our world?

Television. War suddenly wasn't an abstract concept that you read about in the newspapers, or saw grimy footage of cheery soldiers to patriotic music, Vietnam was probably the first televised War, and ever since then, the reality of human conflict is kind of rubbed in your face whenever you turn on a television, and you realise "Blimey, this is just horrible"

So take the Lore, and the WC games as the newspapers and the grimy film footage, but WoW itself as the actual "Oh blimey! This is happening -Now-!"

I think that is a large part of it. Consider the sheer levels of death and devastation in Lordaeron, Quel'thalas, Gnomeregan. Staggering, obscene, beyond comprehension, no one (Including the Kaldorei) has taken such a vast loss in the entire franchise.

Difference is, now we are playing it through in real time. So yes, I do see a difference. It doesn't mean that other races weren't treated as badly.


Erm... What?

This doesn't change anything right? Nor do this take away from the fact that races are still being treated badly... Right? I don't get what the point of this was.

I don't know yet. You don't know yet. Remember those "Blizzard hate Night Elves" threads when people were bewailing their fate and I actually posted "Nah, you wait and see, they're going back to their roots, the things of forest terrors"

Gods I love being right.


So our reward for the Night Elves suffering throughout WoW is to go back to their roots, which they should have been from the start?

Wow, what a gift.. Glad they got genocided for this.

You're probably asking the wrong person... me, I love a good defiance against the odds, no matter how futile story, I can't -wait- to play the Fall of Quel'thalas scenario. I don't even want the armour set, I just want to play through something that my character would have experienced first hand. I already know that the scenario will end with the humiliating defeat of the Elves and all they hold dear, and bare grim survival. I -love- the fact that the Alliance is going on the warpath and mashing the Horde up big style, with future warfronts in Mulgore, Bilgewater and Silvermoon. Come on, what is not thrilling about such a story? Look at our real world, Battle of Britain, Dunkirk, Agincourt, Thermopylae Xenephon and his 10,000. I mean Thermopylae and Dunkirk were both actually complete defeats, but the story...the story endures.


That is was portrayed so poorly for the Alliance/Night Elves, that it made them look incompetent at best and humiliating to anyone who plays the Night Elves at worst?

The fall of the High Elves was done fine and the story around it is good. WoT story is awful and is constantly contradicting itself in the various sources which were released weeks apart, not years but weeks.

If it was done well then sure some people would be annoyed, I doubt anyone wants to see their race lose like this. But certainly not to this level. The way they lost and how was awful and one of the worst story/lore events in WoW. And now look at all the problems what have stemmed from such a event. Look at what it has caused.

How is you side even able to function without it falling to a civil war already, how isn;t every neutral organisation at war with you yet for your genocidal conquest and you killing the planet.
14/11/2018 13:18Posted by Frozenshadow
Ashenvale was Night Elf land. The Orcs still had no right to be there yet we did for countless years. And you ended you trading our land in Azshara with our land in Ashenvale.


Just want to point out that at the end of Cataclysm, a big portion of said land was conquered by orcs.
They were literally giving up stuff they had conquered fair and square.

Most of the current races have strongholds settled on some land they conquered from somebody else. Right of conquest is still considered a valid way of transmitting property.
14/11/2018 13:28Posted by Zarao
Right of conquest is still considered a valid way of transmitting property.


Then Orgrimmar belongs to me, I literally have the title "Conqueror of Orgrimmar". Start paying rent.
14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
Please explain to me, for I can not understand, how can you cede SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND? What claim do the Orcs have to Ashenvale? Did they not get Azshara in recompense?


Because that is what the word 'Cede' means? It doesn't mean your hold is rightful, but it does mean that you possess it. I mean that is exactly what the word means, I don't know how I can more directly describe it,

cede (sēd)
tr.v. ced¡ed, ced¡ing, cedes
1. To surrender possession of, especially by treaty. See Synonyms at relinquish.
2. To yield; grant: The debater refused to cede the point to her opponent.

I mean, definition 1 is -Exactly- what happened.

14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
So the Alliance killed civilians, although Sylvanas ordered Saurfang to prepare evacuating her citizens on the evening Teldrassil was burning? That's some nice logic there, lad.


Unless we assume Sylvanas is some sort of prescient fortune teller, she cannot have known from where the Alliance attack would come. I mean, I don't think any of us expected where the Alliance would attack from? Also, do you know how long it takes to prepare, organise and carry out the evacuation of a civilian population, who by definition are not regimented, organised and used to strict discipline? I like being called 'Lad' though, as someone who turns 44 this week, that warms the cockles of my heart.

14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
Further more, the gnomes and the blood elves knew what they were signing up for when they began playing Vanilla and TBC. Survivors.

Yep, that's right. This reinforces my point. Its easy to complain about a race getting mashed when it happens in game, but others -have- had it worse. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. So the Night Elves are now Survivors? Welcome to the club. Enjoy the story of how you claw your way back from the abyss. Its one of the greatest story arcs ever. I'd say I'm jealous, but I have a Kaldorei Druid anyway, so I am getting to RP out this horror and the furious vengeance that is to come.

14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
Night elves have been reduced to a Horde punching bag that keeps getting saved by human potential. Do you remember Tyrande in a little patience? Do you remember who saves Ashenvale in Wolfheart as Tyrande is wounded?


With age does not necessarily come wisdom, trust me. We've never seen Tyrande behave particularly rationally, and why should she, she is a Warrior Queen effectively, she is Boudicca, Jeanne D'arc, Cleopatra rolled into one, I mean who is to say that her character is not impulsive, reckless, and prone to mistakes? You can be all of those things aged 20, or 80, Who is to say that she -is- some serene being who transcends mere mortal fripperies, I mean hells, Velen is 25,000 years old -at least-, and even he can act irrationally as we see in Legion.

The Human-centric thing is not Blizzard victimising Night Elves, it is Blizzard just doing their thing of still thinking they are writing a game more than a decade ago and focussing on Orcs and Humans.

14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
No other race has received such atrocious portrayal of their leaders, ever. I am not in the "night elves should be gods" camp, but they legitimately have a lot to complain about.


Malfurion was utter chod, until the recent cinematic, I will grant you that. But as to the rest.

Dwarves: "We have an internal dispute, somehow we cannae fix it, best get on the speed dial to Varian"
Gnomes: "We have the whole might of the Alliance with us, but somehow they won't help us with our capital bloody city that has lain under occupation for twenty or so years, never mind, we'll be comic relief"
Draenei: "I am the great and wise Prophet Velen, my super power is that I can see the future, oh, except for when it would be really useful to be able to see the future, at which points I inexplicably cannot. I am ancient, more than 25,000 years old, I am so glad a human teenager could teach me things.

I mean I could go on with the Horde races, but the point is pretty evident. None of the racial leaders have been displayed in a particularly good light. The Night Elves are not unique in this.

14/11/2018 12:30Posted by Araphant
edit: And this way of thinking saying "You shouldn't complain about X because Y happened to someone else" is just insane. Hey, this scenario is moronic, but lets be silent because Gnomes were wiped out before Vanilla. Hey, don't complain about a broken arm, Jeff here broke his leg, what do you have to whine about? Bah.


To use your analogy there, it is more like "Crap, you broke your arm? Jeff broke his leg ten years back, must hurt like all hells, Stay with it...we'll get you fixed and you will get better, just takes time to mend"

14/11/2018 12:47Posted by Anouk
I don't know if you somehow forgot WC1 and 2 but Stormwind's got kind of wrecked by the Horde and they had to flee to Lordaeron. Today's Stowmwind consists not only out of original Stormwinders, but also of survivors of the other Human Kingdoms.


Nope, I remember that. I never actually played WC1 and WC2, but I have done my research into the lore, I know all that happened. The point you are missing is that as things stand, Humans have utter Plot Armour.

14/11/2018 12:47Posted by Anouk
So it's about the dead leader? Good thing the Stormwind Humans never lost their Lea.. Oh..


Lets not play that game, or we'll start with Horde Leaders, and guess what, Horde got hit with that stick more than Alliance did. Remember that time when an Alliance leader died, and we got a whole cinematic about a Horde Leader dying instead of the Alliance one? No...thought not. Me neither. Remember when Vol'jin got shanked and the whole cinematic was about Varian? Yeah...I do too. You missed the bit about the occupation of the city by Alliance friendly forces, by the way.

14/11/2018 12:47Posted by Anouk
Lordaeronians are playable... Either as Forsaken or Humans ingame.-> In the latest christie Golden book, there was literally a reunion organized between Forsaken and Humans... How the heck do you think they are related, if Lordaeronians don't exist in Stormwind? Maybe you should think first about the stuff you write lmao.


Don't recall saying they weren't related? That wasn't the point I was making? Maybe you should think first, before responding to the point you -think- a person was making, as opposed to the point they -were- making. I will refrain from smileys or acronyms to conclude that sentence.

14/11/2018 12:47Posted by Anouk
I wasn't talking about Humans dude, don't change the subject to Alliance.You implied that Humans never got """""smacked""""", while you list races that got like 1 bad thing happening to them. This makes you a Hypocrite, because Humans are one of the races that got """"smacked"""" the most.You have an anti-human bias.


Aren't Humans and the Alliance one and the same thing these days? I Kid, I kid.
You are still incorrect in your definition of a Hypocrite however, that is not what the word means. No, I don't have an anti-human bias, to be honest, it would be weird if I did, given that I am human, but even in game, Human is my joint most played species.

14/11/2018 12:47Posted by Anouk
No it doesn't at all. Blizzard can and WILL change the story whenever they feel like it.The part in the comic doesn't mean anything. It could be a red herring or an alternate timeline just as well.


Yes it absolutely does. Blizzard indeed can and will change the story whenever they feel like it. They have, however, to date, not done so. Is that or is that not correct?
Because that is what the word 'Cede' means? It doesn't mean your hold is rightful, but it does mean that you possess it. I mean that is exactly what the word means, I don't know how I can more directly describe it,


If you accented that properly in your initial point, I wouldn't have brought it up. Ashenvale is night elven core territory.

Unless we assume Sylvanas is some sort of prescient fortune teller, she cannot have known from where the Alliance attack would come. I mean, I don't think any of us expected where the Alliance would attack from?


She finally turned away from the World Tree. Her eyes were steady, the anger within them
gone. What was left in its place? Emptiness? Satisfaction? Saurfang couldn’t read her now. Maybe
he never could.
“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.
“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in
retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”


I mean who is to say that her character is not impulsive, reckless, and prone to mistakes?


I can understand that, but she was shown as being a moron in the tactical sense.

I'd say I'm jealous, but I have a Kaldorei Druid anyway, so I am getting to RP out this horror and the furious vengeance that is to come.


I honestly enjoy it too, but a lot of people don't. My initial point is that a lot of night elves did not sign up to play survivors.

To use your analogy there, it is more like "Crap, you broke your arm? Jeff broke his leg ten years back, must hurt like all hells, Stay with it...we'll get you fixed and you will get better, just takes time to mend"


I can agree with this, aye.
14/11/2018 13:36Posted by Araphant
14/11/2018 13:28Posted by Zarao
Right of conquest is still considered a valid way of transmitting property.


Then Orgrimmar belongs to me, I literally have the title "Conqueror of Orgrimmar". Start paying rent.


Haha! That is actually right!

Thus, by the order of Zarao:

Horde! Hand over Orgrimmar! It is ours by the right of conquest which is a "a valid way of transmitting property"!
14/11/2018 13:52Posted by Halasibel
Thus, by the order of Zarao:

Horde! Hand over Orgrimmar! It is ours by the right of conquest which is a "a valid way of transmitting property"!


I have the Liberator of Orgrimmar title that nullifies your claim, ha ha!
You conquer I liberate, Orgrimmar is mine again.

Jokes aside, I’m deadly serious with my previous comment.

Don’t want to be THAT guy that goes “All land is troll land” but.....all land is troll land then?.
People talk about “Night elf lands”, not about “Troll lands occupied by Night elves”.
Ironforge is referenced as dwarf lands, and the list goes on.
14/11/2018 13:59Posted by Zarao
14/11/2018 13:52Posted by Halasibel
Thus, by the order of Zarao:

Horde! Hand over Orgrimmar! It is ours by the right of conquest which is a "a valid way of transmitting property"!


I have the Liberator of Orgrimmar title that nullifies your claim, ha ha!
You conquer I liberate, Orgrimmar is mine again.

Jokes aside, I’m deadly serious with my previous comment.

Don’t want to be THAT guy that goes “All land is troll land” but.....all land is troll land then?.
People talk about “Night elf lands”, not about “Troll lands occupied by Night elves”.
Ironforge is referenced as dwarf lands, and the list goes on.


Give back all that "troll land" to my lord Neptulon then ;)

Or...

All land belongs to the Light which was the first thing ever then!

Zarao, what's the weather in Madrid?
14/11/2018 14:01Posted by Halasibel
Give back all that "troll land" to my lord Neptulon then ;)


Talking piles of rock have no rights. There I said it, sue me.

It’s blunt, it sounds bad, but the land belongs to the species that has something akin to a civilisation. The spirits of the sky, wind, earth or whatever can enjoy holding the lands with the “guests” atop them.

Really, if I were to sabotage my own argument, I’d say said land belongs to the Black Empire.

But again, tumour minions don’t have rights on Azeroth neither.

14/11/2018 14:01Posted by Halasibel
Zarao, what's the weather in Madrid?


Cloudy, windy and cold as hell at the moment (cold for my southern-spanish standards)
Talking piles of rock have no rights.


Why?

But again, tumour minions don’t have rights on Azeroth neither.


Why?

Give back all that "troll land" to my lord Neptulon then ;)


Talking piles of rock have no rights. There I said it, sue me.


He's not a rock. So he does have right then? He's made of water. Living organisms are made mostly of water. So that means Neptulon has rights. Azeroth belongs to him.

14/11/2018 14:06Posted by Zarao
14/11/2018 14:01Posted by Halasibel
Zarao, what's the weather in Madrid?


Cloudy, windy and cold as hell at the moment (cold for my southern-spanish standards)


You should try Poland. When I visited Malaga, I was told that 10 degrees is the coldest they ever get. I mean... In Poland 10 degrees qualifies as "warm" :'(