Why is Feral PvP class design so contraversial

[Faveyo-die-nachtwache]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Root/ Ursol Vortex and what else not.

Dont forget the 60% faster Cyclone From the pvp Talent, and their main stat is also “haste”

so boomy cast clone 80% faster than a Feral, WHILE he can cast it, in moonkin wtf? xD

@Gurranq-argent-dawn

Feral plays pretty great right now both in PvE and PvP

hm, Maybe for You, but for Me Feral is in a strange situation, Feral feels like a Shadowlands/Bfa Ret but with Mobility

Incarnation is Like 1000000k dps, and Everyone is dying, but outside of Incarnation u do Noodle dmg, and many Ferals try to Spamclone for Frenzy Procs, which is also a Bad designe

because it shouldnt be the case, To Spam Cyclone on a dr Target OR TOTEMS, or Pets, to get a infinite amount of Feral Frenzy Procs

I mean i Like to Clone, and i Prefer the Playstyle over Mongo Aoe Spam for Apex procs, BUT it Feels also not Right To spamclone Pets/Totems otherwise i do no dmg outside of Incarnation

so a Pvp Talent which allows u To cast Cyclone in Catform, or 40% Faster would be the Better Solution instead of a Feral Frenzy machinegun Pvp Talent

But the Normal Cyclone cast in Df Especially without the incap roar feels so outdated and not fluid or satisfying either

@Gurranq-argent-dawn

single target stuns in the game,

Sub Rogue joined the Lobby

@Gurranq-argent-dawn

no other druid spec has access to, right?

if u mean Maim this is True, but Boomy can still run Bash

@Gurranq-argent-dawn

Cat was far too strong

But 80% haste clone close to be a Instant in a [Precog] Meta isnt op? i would say this is Wotlk Feral clone Level even more op with High winds (idk if boomy can run this Talent) xd

@Gurranq-argent-dawn

Moonkin has weak defensives as a tradeoff.

I mean almost the same deff CDs as a Feral, I mean Boomy has no survival instincts but higher regrowth heals, higher frenzy regeneration heals and more Armor + better Game control because of the Fast cyclones.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

Feral changed massively coming into DF. It changed in ways that made it competitive without losing its unique flavour as a druid spec.

You know we Talk about Pvp?

(pve)
and wow Feral got a buff on The Aoe rip wooooow what an improvement and exciting gameplay i couldnt care less about this degenerate Playstyle tbh

The only good Thing About The Dragonflight Talent tree is Incarnation, “Berserk” is Finally a Dmg cd again, But everything else is kind of outdated in terms of usefulness in PvP

But the Normal Druid talent tree is the worst talent tree I’ve ever seen in my life, it’s completely messed up and the designer of the Normal Druid talent tree needs to be fired

@Tyssera-ravencrest

I’m one of the people who campaigned most actively for feral to be reworked

For Your own Advantage PVE wise ONLY PVE wise, yeah make another baseline buff Aoe rip by 5% Suggestion, this would fix everything for sure

@Tyssera-ravencrest

t was fun to play and competitive in ALL

Bruh this abomination of a class is a Fury Warri in Leather gear i have 10 less keybinds than Last xpac, do you think this is a Good game designe where dispell curse is for example ?

and the fact that i have to take Boomy form to get Cyclone? xD
yeah i also could take Useless heals instead of the Boomy form which i never would use, because its a global waste for Zero Heal nice

and in Shadowlands i had Incap Roar and Bash together. we also lost Yseras gift in df

im Fine with the Feral Talent Tree, but i wish i had the choice between Circle of life and Death, and Deep focus for more Singletarget Dmg

But the Normal Druid Talent tree is bad

@Tyssera-ravencrest

feral class design’. That covers EVERY aspect of the game

you can also put everything on a gold scale, did you you even read what he wrote?
it is obvious, that the main point is pvp - Cyclone - And the boomie has a better pvp utility than a feral, waaaay better

@Tyssera-ravencrest

c that works for all of us and not just PvP,

https://www.wowhead.com/de/guide/classes/tier-lists/dps-rankings-raids

Good job mate, keep pushing your aoe rip rotation and be proud of a class that uses fewer buttons in an aoe fight than a demon hunter

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

You got some very good points.
I think we should make a list of things we LOST vs the things we HAVE GOTTEN in contrast of Shadowlands til the very last patch (10.1, that is now).
And even though I personally ranted a lot I might get to do it at some point in the next day but anyone who is willing and is objective and competent can do it instead.
I think the way to speak to the Devs is in short concrete messages because they dont read discussions, i think.
So if we can comply all of these issues in a non-rant way, the goods and the bads, maybe we can get some attention from these said druid Devs and maybe we can even get something in the coming patches, who knows ? shrugs

[Shashak-ravencrest]

Fire Mage one season being just average suddenly they get tons of buffs and reworkds lol…
Feral always close to bottom in raids stats and at best average in PvP? no problem at all.
Thia company has no resources and so onky the popular specs get the focus. Feral is a niche spec add to it they have some of the worst gatekeepers like those in discord means any change and you get the cry babies out

[Jenovas-argent-dawn]

" * Hearth of the Wild cooldown should be reduced and should be off the GCD."

Probably a 2-3min CD, I never understood why such a niche spell that rarely ever is used or even taken has such a massive 5min CD. And better make it a choice node with our old legendary where shifting into form gives you a 10-15sec Heart once every 1 minute.

CC - I really think Cyclone should be baseline, Ferals have almost no control, casting Cyclone as feral is already really hard and risky and now we have to waste so many talents just to get it. Even with amazing Cyclone talents you still rarely ever take it. Having a way to hasten the cast like boomkin with a PvP talent could also help, maybe we’d finally see Cyclone being used.

Healing - just buff regrowth or heavily buff how fast Protector stacks (like give it 10-15% of DMG done stacks, probably that wouldn’t be enough, but still something), every single class out there can easily outheal a feral that spams regrowth every single finisher and next patch the healing is getting nerfed again with Nature’s duration being cut in half (probably mainly due to PvE and huge pulls). Also Frezied healing you for 10% of your HP in a time where solo shuffle is 90% of PvP and dampening stacks so fast makes it almost a worthless button, pressing Ironfur will probably reduce more DMG than Frezied heals.

AoE vs ST - We really need to have two separate Rips when it comes to Primal Wrath and any other talents that interact with it so that it’s easier for Blizzard to balance our AoE vs ST. Every single time Druid has too much AoE they end up nerfing not only AoE but also ST because of how connected our AoE and ST is.

Incarn - 5 talents is just too much and out of the 5 we have one that is never ever taken - Ashmanes Guidance (I think this needs a total rework). I like never see that talent being taken in PvP and PvE. Make it, I don’t know, buff all other berserk talents so it doesn’t feel so bad to put in 5 points for one CD? Say give Heart of the Lion 0.6 - 0.75sec, give Shred and Rake + 5-10%DMG, give Frenzy 125% Bleed. I think feral is the only spec that just hates and never takes Improved Incarn.

Convoke - just put it in the class tree. That’s all. Not a single Druid spec actually goes Convoke and when we do it’s some kind of niche “I hope this works, but I’m losing Incarn for it so it won’t” thing. If having Incarn + Convoke is too OP just nerf Convoke a bit, but still put it in the class tree.

Class Tree - too much bloat.

• make more spells baseline
  Sunfire - make it baseline for Bala and Resto, Feral and Guardian can’t even use it.
  Rejuv - make it baseline, again 3 specs can’t even really use it cause it takes you out of form (you could also make it not remove form, its only a 20k heal over 10 secs).
  Cyclone - again almost dead for two specs, behind multiple talents that give no benefit at all, make it baseline.
  Hibernate - another dead talent, just give it baseline, people will rarely use it anyways.

• Protector - could use a buff to stack faster. As a capstone the effect itself really isn’t strong enough and having to stack it for so long just makes it worse.

• Heart - reduce it’s CD to like 2-3 mins and make it a choice node with our old legendary that made changing form once per minute give a shorter duration Heart.

• Nature’s Vigil - make it more accessible to feral and guardian. Both specs need to waste 6 talents on stuff they can’t even use to get to it.

• add Convoke to the class tree as a capstone.

• Capstones
  PotP - right now is really weak, you outside of Resto the other specs rarely take it, Guardian can’t even use it without fully commiting to the left side of his spec tree.
  Heart - is way too weak and has a way too large CD.

• Nature’s Vigil I think is actually the only one that is ok, but in PvE it’s OP on large pulls so it’s getting a 50% nerf…

• New Capsones
  Convoke - just put it in there and nerf it if it’s too OP. People will still use it even if for fun and because other capstones are very whatever.
  Adaptive Swarm - every spec probably could use it more or less, doesn’t seem really OP, right now I think only Resto ever uses it?
  Improved Incarn - every spec gets all their Incarn talents, would free up 1 point in the spec trees and give something impactful in the class tree? Might be too much, but I’m trying to think of stuff that would be useful in all specs.

• Make Druids feel more hybrid - I just hate that other classes that don’t have a single casted healing have more passive healing than an actual hybrid class that has casted heals and needs to talent into them. And again you got resto druids that deal no DMG at all. By making more spells baseline or spec specific we can add new spells like Protective Growth, Forestwalk into the class tree that can improve our healing and provide some type of utility. For example if a Feral puts talents into healing and actually exits his cat form to cast heals and can only cast 3 spells before going OOM those heals should be ALOT stronger and provide some type of utility. It’s funny seeing Boomkins and Ferals with capstones all focused on healing doing 5mln healing after a solo shuffle and looking at other classes that did 10mln healing because of their passives…

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

I really like how shamans can get a oneshot mechanics and total immunity in a single patch and we cant even get a Restealth mechanic, besides that wonky 3 min cd that u will almost never waste on restealthing or being forced into playing Night Elf.
I really believe that simply making Cyclone castable in form (bear form too , would be dope to use it defensively like that), Hibernate baseline, Thorns baseline.
A little buff on Protector of the Pack storing % , so you can just do dmg and get some notable healing bonus from it.
Buff the HOTs of Regrowth and Rejuv to the point where they actually passively heal you and people would care to dispel them, like in WOTLK. Remember when people used to HOT themselves before going in… yeah boy, it mattered.
We need 2 charges of Wild Charge.
Yeah we do have enough mobility… yada yada, but most classes also got way too many mobility spells already, arenas are enclosed spaces so they’re already limiting druids in a way, including dampening but i digress …
t.l.d.r. everyone is almost as mobile as a feral, especially DHs, Monks, and even warriors are easily catching up like hunter and maybe even rogues with 2 vanishes that reset CDs and 2 charges of Shadowstep along with some casters like Draktyr , mage.
2 charges of WIld Charge would be well deserved.
Speaking of Wild Charge, on the talent tree it should swap places with Sooth.
Wild Growth and Corruption should also swap places.
We need more access to talents like Urols Vortex/Mass Entanglement, these are talents that are so fun to use as feral i never understood how they could play us like this.
We’re probably the spec that lost the most buttons after Shadowlands ended.

[Jenovas-argent-dawn]

Just to prove how bad our selfhealing is - I just finished a solo shuffle game where I casted 12 regrowths, I play with PotP, I used Frezied Regen and Renewal, my total healing in that single match was 700k.

I played against a elem shaman and ench shaman.
Elem shaman healing totem alone did 1.1mln healing (6 casts), Earth shield alone 600k healing (3 casts), Natures Guardian 300k Healing, he did 2mln healing with basically passive effects, Enh Shaman exactly the same case 2mln healing where the majority of it was totem and earth shield. How can 3 casts of Earthshield alone be equal to 12 casts of regrowth, PotP, Frenzied Regen and Renewal all combined.

How is it that a shaman gets 1mln healing from a passive totem that they can just place down and not care about it and PotP does 200k healing all game when I’m actually doing AoE and stacking it and using regrowths. A single tick of Earth Shield is equal to a regrowth cast

My highest regrowth heal all game was for 35k… My highest crit 33k (probably all my crits happened in high dampening, bad luck)…

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

I mean just out of good will here are some tips on increasing healing:
It mostly revolves around [Verdant Heart] and [Adaptive Swarm].
Both Barkskin and Frenzied Regen increase healing by 20 % according to the talent , however Frenzied Regen healing from itself is not increased. Not sure if a bug but if you use Barkskin and Frenzied Regen, then it will indeed increase by 20%. The healing will also increase if you use Adaptive Swarm on yourself since it increases periodic healing.
Theres a way to pull off a 80% healing increased Swiftmend in theory but in practice its really hard and in 80% of the situations it wont work perfectly, im just putting it here for the curioucity of it:
During the last second of Enraged Regen if you happen to have a HOT + Heart + Barkskin, it will heal for 80% more.
Weird enough Renewals healing is not affected by any healing increasing buffs except for buffs that increase your HP, so HP trinket and Bear Form + Renewal is very powerful.
Generally try to use your healing around Barkskin and Frenzied, if you happen to be on the run, pop Bear, drop Frenzied and use your proc of instant Regrowth while under the effect of Frenzied for extra healing.
While at it:
Barkskin also gives an absorb shield according to [Matted Fur], which is great defensively you can save yourself some trouble, but what if you can avoid 100% of the damage all together ?

• Just pop Barkskin, Shadowmeld and Prowl + Dash away, you can even macro it. You can do the same with Survival Instincts but its too long of a CD to sacrifice for a restealth… even though… you can, if you want to.

[Marfushka-argent-dawn]

We need to lose some healing buffing effects. We have Adaptive Swarm, the thing that stacks up and HoTW. These things add up and makes it so that our baseline healing has to be bad or else it would be overpowered. Blizz need to learn that sometimes less is more…

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

Hey, just for clarification.
I do NOT like it like this.
I do NOT think it should be like this.
I shared this so it can help someone , maybe.
Its ridiculous that most classes passively heal so much,
And we have to play the piano for 5 seconds before pressing a healing spell for it to heal some normie levels of healing.
We’re also the only melee without any immunities, with unreliable CC (cyclone is a difficult pick, it also is difficult to be pulled off for its casting time, short range, having to get out of form, and school of magic) , unreliable healing (low offhealing) and unrealiable burst(the RNG of convoke and how hard it is to pull it off).