Yes. Apparently the bottom hasn’t been reached…
we see that in the top list too…
I can’t even laugh about it. and i like to play holy pala in s2 myself and had hardly any invites for 22s. but now i get instant invites for keys i just timed 21…
ABSOLUTELY BRAINLESS AND EMBARRASSING BALANCE!!!
I expect we’ll see some tuning with Mages. They seemed to do a lot of messing with the specs on the PTR including some over nerfs and the final iteration that went live is very strong. Too strong.
However having said that, there will always be something that is the meta. For the average player it makes no difference to running regular keys. Push groups will obviously care more about having that meta set up.
The problem with M+ is the playerbase. Thinking you need a meta set up for your +12.
Yea, sure who isn’t? You are bigoted (illiberal/puritan) by your views. You think everyone else experiencing the same things as you, but that’s not true.
Sometimes but not always. He has his own well-known opinions. When he saw something that doesn’t fits it, he simply opposes it. He sometimes does it… sarcastic ways. This is because of cultural differences.
But sometimes he says something, irrelevant or repetitive, just to trigger you, he is doing this to everyone, also to me. But staying out of the discussion and watching Deja vs others is the most fun thing. 
(I liked this)
Well, that’s not so very true. I know, he can be very annoying sometimes but that doesn’t make the guy’s ideas “mostly garbage”
Do you see the patterns here, between the sentences above?
I never thought you are a troll, you are just… kinda excited about your ideas but… whatever.
The problem is, WoW is not an easy game, requires too much time, effort and practice to become good.
Instanced content like M+, PvP and raid needs coordination, and practice together with the same team. Once the people reject or are unable to do so, problems appear, notedly on the difficulties that near the skill-gear cap. It happens to all of us not only to you.
This is an internal issue, but not related due to M+, PvP or raid structure.
Removing timers or depletes won’t solve anything but it will simplify the game. Simplifying M+ makes it nothing different from Diablo’s rifts/greater rifts. WoW has its own gameplay and culture.
This is part of why this system is not really designed around PuGs.
In a group of friends then, sure, just go again and do the lower key and then go again again and re-do the original key. A bit of faff but friends playing together will do this fine.
In a PUG are these strangers (supposing they didn’t leave after the first wipe) really stick around and go again for the lower key? 1 in 50 might.
So your key is depleted and then you have to find a new group to run the lower key. An ordeal given the current community. Will they commit to running the higher key then? some probably will be not all, would half even?
So then an ordeal of forming another group for the re-upped key.
i mean its not an ordeal. You simply place yourself in the queue and wait. Might take a little time depending on the key but thats all it is.
I will say though this is the case, S1 of DF had the widest high end meta I think we’ve ever had. Every single class got title as dps and I had experience playing with everything except ret paladin in keys well above title range.
The meta right now is substantially narrower, partly because of class balance and partly because of mandatory utility (Mass Dispel being required in half of the keys past 25 is stupid) and with the introduction of aug we have our 3 set in stone.
It doesn’t really matter, the only thing that running with friends solves is people not leaving keys as much, or at all, but the deplete is a problem all by itself.
Just running with friends does not solve the fundamental problems of m+.
I mean they are problems in your view. I dont really see it as a problem.
See? You think everyone else experiencing the same things as you, again.
I am running with my premade and rarely pugging.
We are leaving our keys, more often than you think. Sometimes the reason is even “Sorry, I am tired”.
When the same happens with pugs, it causes frustration.
It is not about timers.
It is not about depleting.
It is not about M+ itself.
Sometimes we need to be more mature and realistic.
Go back to the previous post and re read the list i made. The 4 point list.
To suggest that “there is no problem” is frankly lazy thinking, i could be harsher, but ill just leave it at that.
I’m honestly tired arguing the self evident with people.
So what you are saying is that you are right no matter what and that i have to agree with you?
Thats some critical thinking right there…
If you pug then expect a price of the “convenience” offered. Remove every drawback of pugging and people might as well just play with NPCs and bots cause there would be absolutely no fundamental difference.
Pre-made = Smoother groups but requires the most difficult thing imaginable => speaking with others.
Pugs = Act like the others are NPCs “bots” so no “great effort” talking required but don’t expect the said bots to always play according to your…standards.
I got nothing against pugging but I am against making puging, aka close to solo-play as the “best” way to play the end-game in an MMO game.
Didnt you read WoW’ forums handbook in foruming 101?
First page: You are always right and if somebody disagrees then he is a shill/white knight/blind/fool/blizzard apologist and etc.
Think i missed that one…
On that part I can agree. But they also did improve on that it in some DF content. For example the 2nd boss in the Dawn of the Infinite Megadungeon has clear visible AoE design. The fight is just hard because of the mechanics and necessity to be very mobile.
It doesn’t really matter
i know you think it does but trust me it doesn’t
I just read the title but anything competitive becomes toxic because it human nature to hate or to think you are better than others.
Another useful on topic reply guys.
Nah you go and be mature bro, if you’re tired, don’t play a timed game mode that actively punishes people for dropping out. Don’t bring that mature idiocy here, it’s a condescending non-argument that sweeps questionable and IMO awful design decisions under the rug.
He is right because whatever argument was brought up here, M+ apologists came in with “yeah but I don’t care/it doesn’t bother me/so what”. Those aren’t arguments, you aren’t proving a point about how making the game more punishing than any other avenue of end-game content is GOOD in any way. It’s a loop of frustration and nothing else.
It’s never gonna be the “best way” to do anything by virtue of what it is. Of course it’s always gonna be easier and simpler to do things with friends if you have them, it doesn’t mean that the pug experience should be miserable.
It does, they aren’t bending over backward now because they suddenly decided to be friendly to players rather than openly antagonistic like in BFA-SL, they are doing it because the numbers are pathetic.
M+ is the one exception that keeps getting worse and less approachable with every expansion. No one can argue in good faith that DF’s iteration isn’t the hardest and the most grueling yet because higher scaling and moving to goalpost to +20 emphasize all the bs that was there from the start.
not at all…
only sick and extremely toxic animals are like that…
Here’s the thing: I did a Dawn run before on my alt. We wiped a lot, and it took 5 tries to kill the last boss on my alt, but we discussed the strat very detailed and there was 0 toxicity, because the only lose condition is time. In M+ the lose condition is not only time, but also loss of progress. That’s why M+ is toxic, and the devs are killing their game, if they incentivize it with easy gear, because M+ is easier. However, despite being easier, it’s extremely punishing. It creates a toxic environment. It’s better to fulfill the niche of M+ as a 5 person instance with way harder content and good gear than having this pseudo esport game mode killing the game