Why is Theramore seen as a Warcrime?

It’s meant as compliment. Showing just that the color of an avatar shouldn’t matter for arguments. But serveral players here can’t live up to that objectivity.

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Yep, so many statements about Insert random faction people being like this, or like that. Gets tiresome, really.

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Hyperbole ([/haɪˈpɜːrbəli/]; [Ancient Greek]: [ὑπερβολή], huperbolḗ , from [ὑπέρ] ( hupér , ‘above’) and [βάλλω] ( bállō , ‘I throw’)) is the use of [exaggeration] as a [rhetorical device] or [figure of speech]. In [rhetoric], it is also sometimes known as [auxesis]. In [poetry] and [oratory], it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions. As a figure of speech, it is usually not meant to be taken literally.

And it still isn’t a personal attack.

I already admitted that there isn’t another source. But i will learn from you that sources i don’t count as sources, and just ask for more…

Do you legit want to get into this? Because I will get into this. But here’s a compromise. I get off your back, and you will refrain from slanting the entire Alliance forum-board in the future. Deal?

Kinda is, unless you enjoy being called “unreasonable.”

To be honest Araphant, i never thought of you when i posted this.
But many of the most vocal Alliance posters here, rip people apart for trying to find (and discuss) any motivation the Horde might have as Sylvanas fanboys, they were the people i adressed with this (admittedly exaggerated) number.

Is it ok when we are done with this now? :wink:

ps. i’ll take this as a yes.

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Here ya go, I went through the effort of downloading the Audio book for War Crimes, cutting out the part which Taran Zhu just to prove to you that the Bombing of Theramore was a War Crime.

If you want the exact time frame then click this link instead.

It clearly states that it is a War Crime yet you keep repeatedly ignore this, you are wrong, get over it.

I am really tempted just to level up a Horde character to post on here, I get sick of being labelled as XYZ just cos of some colour.

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:musical_note:Dedication, dedication! :musical_note:

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Actually, Theramore wasn’t a warcrime. The races of the Horde are born evil (or, in the case of forsaken, turned evil by magic) so it’s just them serving their own primal insticts. Punishing them for something that’s a part of their existence would be like punshing a baby sucking on it’s mother’s breast for incest.

Now, why the Alliance doesn’t have good guys like Othmar or Daelin anymore who are willing to work on this problem is the question you should be asking.

I see you tiping Aethil, but don’t fall for the bait of Grave. It’s not worth it.

That’s racist!

just making fun of it, can’t take him serious to be honest. Just like Arctur. They are caricatures at this point.

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No one can resist the bait of the Ear-less Knight.

Don’t open that can of worms. Delete it fast before it escalates! :frowning:

“What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” -Paarthurnaax

Alright, on to some quotes about the book regarding stuff i felt like people argued that felt wrong:

Page 222:

“No. Our energies are best put toward teamwork right now. What lives we must sacrifice need to count, Anduin. We have a better chance of winning when we focus together”.
Anduin’s golden head turned again to the ships in the harbor. “Why did the Horde do this?”. “They didn’t know we had relocated the civilians. They just…” His voice trailed off. Varian laid a gentle hand on his son’s shoulder.

Civilians were relocated out of Theramore. They are addressed as something that wasn’t inside the city when the bomb dropped.

Page 184

“Disaster” repeated Garrosh, rolling the word around in his mouth as if tasting it. “No, i do not think so. You were all very angry with me for waiting. You had secret meetings, you complained to me again, and again, and again. You did not trust my wisdom. My plans. And now, can you tell me what my decision to wait has bought us?”.
“Defeat?” said Runetotem, spitting the word like acid.
Again Garrosh laughed. […]
Garrosh continued to rant, almost screaming to be heard. "We waited. On my orders, we waited. We waited until the 7th Legion’s fleet, almost in its entirety, came to Theramore Harbor. We waited until the greatest generals of the Alliance -Marcus Jonathan and Shandirs Feathermoon among them- came to the aid of poor Lady Jaina to offer their best soldiers and their brilliant strategists. We waited until Kalecgos of the blue dragonflight came, until five members of the Kirn Tor, including their leader, Rhoning, came.
Ships and soldiers, magi and generals, all at Theramore. We threw ourselves at the gates, which our friend Thalen Songweaver weakened for us -and his loyalty was rewarded. While the Alliance focused on us, a small team infiltrated Theramore. Their accomplishments were twofold - they rescued Thalen and were able to cripple the Alliance aerial defenses. And now - we shall wait no longer!".

The text goes on, in fact, he relishes on the brilliance of his plan to decimate said generals.

Page 156

He thought of Baine and Vol’jin.
Garrosh had learned his lesson with Cairne’s death, and while the troll and tauren leaders irritated him to no end, he knew it would be foolishness to challenge either of them to ritual combat. They were loved and respected by their people, and both did have true loyalty to the Horde, if not to Garrosh individually. Soon, they would come to heel and acknowledge that his tactics had been beyond brilliant -indeed, that he had achieved more for the Horde than any leader, including the adored Thrall, had ever done.

Inner thoughts as well as outer ones regarding his plan to kill as many commanders and military assets as he could. And how he considered it brilliant.

Page 145

Aubrey leaned forward “Before we start talking strategies and planning, Lady Jaina, I need to tell you what we saw as we sailed toward the harbor”.
Jaina felt blood drain from her face. “Let me guess” she said. “Several Horde battleships”.
Jonathan frowned slightly. “You cannot see them from the harbor” he said “and Theramore’s ships stayed close home, or so we were informed. How did you know?”.
“They were here a few days ago, being very careful to stay just inside Horde territory”, said Pained. “It appears they never trule left”.
“We were more than ready to engage if they had given us even a whiff of provocation” said Jonathan. “But they sat there quite calmly, as if out for a scenic boat ride. They didn’t budge”.

So, yes, Garrosh gave order to the fleet to leave the Alliance ships be. Even if they were spoiling for a fight against Horde ones.

Page 148

Grom’s son had waited and let Jaina learn about the planned attack, had let her people stockpile food and weapons, had let her receive outside help.

It was part of Garrosh plan to let the Alliance know he was going after the city. Thats the whole point of leaving war boats just at their border armed and ready.

Just to clarify, the nuke was dropped about a few moments after the Horde had already retreated. Civilians were still out of the city.

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You can’t become good if you are born evil. That’s just silly. The Void Lords or the Old Gods will never redeem themselves, as they have nothing to redeem in the first place. They are born evil and will always be evil. And wasn’t the dragon who said that line a traitor who helped the Skyrim bad guy in the past?

Yeah, Paarthurnaax was one of Alduin’s ( Skyrim’s main villain) lieutenant before he rebelled against him.

Can a man who was born good do no evil?

That’s not what I am saying. I am saying that a man who was born good can redeem themselves if they do evil acts. But a man who is born evil for whatever reasons cannot even understand the concept of redemption or good, they simply don’t care. Prove me wrong, name me a character who was clearly born evil and somehow managed to become good.

I raise your quotes, and follow them with my own:

“What about the civilians?” asked Kinndy. “Should we tell them?”

She (Jaina) turned to Tervosh. "You and Kinndy start going door to door informing the citizens. No more ships are to set sail from this fort. We need every single vessel we can muster. Those civilians who wish to leave, may, though I believe they will be safer here then in the marsh with the Horde approaching…

Next quote:

“Shortly after the arrival of the 7th Legion fleet, Jaina had insisted that one ship, the Starsword, be dispatched to bear the civilians of the city who wished to leave to safety. All of the children went aboard, and many of their families.” Others chose to stay.

It is expected that those civilians are these civilians:

**https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theramore_Citizen**

One of the quotes is:

* I… I can’t… they took my children!
* Please, find my babies!

The 7th Legion also arrived through the Horde’s blockade, thus it is relatively clear that no other civilians made it through before them. Your own quote proves it.

Actually, lets add more:

“I am sure you don’t know this, but the Horde has built up a very effective blockade around the continent.”

Read that line.
And if you had quoted the page, you’d see that one was prior to the one i quoted about Jaina enabling every civilian that was already inside the city (including the ones you quoted), to leave if they wanted to aboard the Starsword.
All of the children and many of their families.

Only the civilians that chose to stay, stayed.
They certainly had the chance to.

Even if a few did in fact stay, they certainly did so of their own volition. And can’t really represent a minority if Anduin and the rest acknowledge in such broad terms that the civilian collective as a whole, had indeed been relocated.

There was no blockade, as Garrosh ordered such after the bombing to prevent further aid when he launched the second stage of his plan to control the rest of Alliance strongholds on Kalimdor.
Marcus makes it abundantly clear that they were given clear access to the harbour and the city.

Two books contradict that part. Apparently story writers forgot to read both Tides of War and War Crimes.

What do you consider canon is up to yo.
There are Darkspear /cheers that go “For Zul’jin”.