Because their only other chance was a hike through Dustwallow marsh as a Horde army was approaching. Jaina herself says they would be safer in the city.
This quote makes it quite clear that a lot of civilians in fact, did not escape. Unless you are trying to convince me that an entire population can be evacuated on a single ship? The sentence is also quite clear, many did not evacuate.
This is where you are playing dumb. A blockade was in place which let the Alliance fleet pass, in order to better trap them for the mana bomb.
Civilians probably were not offered the same courtesy, as you can see from the people playing darts with survivors, presumably from the Starsword.
I see no contradictions, really. A part of the civilians was evacuated to be slaughtered later, a part died in the bombing. Simple as that.
You and me can toy with percentages.
Also, there was a blockade on Theramore, excuse me. The reinforcements arrived through it.
Shortly after the arrival of the 7th fleet, Jaina had insisted that one ship, the Starsword, be dispatched to bear the civilians of the city who wished to leave to safety. All of the children went aboard, and many of their families. Others chose to stay. It was their home, they loved it as Jaina did and wanted to defend it.
They stayed because they wanted to fight. Not because they didnât have any other choice. Jaina indeed offered them the chance to.
Anduin states the civilians of Theramore were relocated.
And as Wimbert pointed out, page 422 of War Crimes has Jaina stating that she managed to get the people on that boat to safety.
Further reinforcing what Anduin says in Tides of War, about civilians being relocated.
Page 205
Unbelievably, there was yet more to hear. Unable to speak just yet, Thrall motioned for the courier to continue. The youn orcâs own voice was heavy with sorrow as he spoke. "Our navy has dispersed to form a ring around Kalimdor and blockade the Alliance. There will be no aid coming, to Feathermoon Stronghold, or Teldrassil, or elsewhere, nor will any significant number of their inhabitants escape. Garrosh has openly boasted of conquering the entire continent and either driving out or wiping out all traces of the Alliance.
This speech describes what happened after Theramore (an orc courier sent to the Maelstorm by Eitrigg). The blockade was created after the bomb was dropped, not prior.
Tides of War and War Crimes state that children of the Starsword made it safety and/or were relocated.
Anduin said otherwise. Jaina said otherwise in War Crimes.
And even if you are willing to take civilian casualties, iâve already quoted the literal motive and intent Garrosh had regarding said attack.
Which again goes back to a best case scenario of Garrosh not caring about collateral damage, not about him actively targeting civilians as it was thrown around here.
Iâm rather tired of typing quotes, but page 117 states the orders the crew of Blood and Thunder had.
It wasnât a blockade, it was a feint to draw Theramores ships even tighter together and lure the rest of the navy into the harbour to defend it.
And then to swoop in to kill any potential survivors and claim whatever was left for the Horde, after the nuke had destroyed the city.
Iâve quote like 10 different quotes regarding a lot of misconceptions about the events surrounding Theramore.
Ranging from Garrosh motives, tactics, and plenty other stuff.
People can turn a blind eye to it and continue with their own interpretation of what happened or at least bother to take this into consideration and tweak their initial claims.
There is no need to further demonise Garrosh for what happened in Theramore. Nuking the city was enough to prove that we are supposed to be repulsed by said attack.
Going for the overkill and stating that he aimed at civilians, and all that drivel that came afterwards, is justâŠflawed. Its not what happened.
And as much as you dislike the characters, things happened in a certain way.
Theramore was portrayed as a war crime because Garrosh used a nuke. It really is as simple as that.
It describes the goals of said strategy. Which have nothing to do with explictly targeting civilians.
I even took his âinner thoughtsâ as you put them, further proving that Garrosh wasnât targeting civilians.
Even if you are to discard the literal quotes that explain Garrosh motives, you are left with gigantic elephants in the room such as him randomly deciding to let his target escape, or let the Alliance better defend them (?).
And the rest of the quotes you dismissed addressed a wide range of stuff, not all civilian related.
Yes, that is very kind of him. Itâs just a shame that he intended to completely annihilate them after the first attack failed.
Fair enough, like I said I did not read Tides of War, and I was under the impression that there was a longer delay between both attacks.
But the point still stands: Theramore is a city, it is composed of civilians and military alike. In a ground assault, you know who youâre killing. When you drop a nuke, you donât. Garrosh couldnât possibly know whether there were any civilians left, and yet he dropped a bomb on the entire town.
Regarding the fleet, true, the manoeuver was a feint, but they were close enough to ensure a blockade:
Chapter 14
Malkorok growled low and took a step forward. Garrosh raised a hand, and the other orc paused in midstride. âI need you to get a message to the Blood and Thunder and the other vessels gathered just outside of Theramore Harbor,â he said, his eyes not on Malkorok but on Baine. âTell them that I have new orders for them.â
Baine and Volâjin exchanged hopeful glances. Perhaps Garrosh was finally listening to them.
Garrosh smiled around his tusks, and when he spoke, his voice was hard. âTell the fleet to pull back even farther from Theramore. Far enough away that the most sophisticated Alliance contraption can no longer see them. Their presence isnât needed anymore.â
âThose civilians who wish to leave, may, though I believe they will be safer here then in the marsh, with the Horde approaching.â
Except I just finished the quote, showing the alternative was a hike through Dustwallow into the arms of an incoming Horde army.
One ship. As for Anduinâs quote, its one quote against several.
Good one, you walked into this:
"While the blood elf, goblin and Forsaken ships had assembled in Ratchet, the orc ships had set sail for Theramore. They had waited in Horde waters, safely out of sight.
A sentence further:
âSo it was now, eagerly, they moved close enough to see Theramore through a spyglass. Satisfied that they were still technically in Horde waters, Gharha barked the order that the anchor be dropped.â
Alliance view on the same fleet:
But when she looked through the spyglass herself in the topmost part of the tower, her heart sank.
âSo manyâŠâ she murmured.
âAnd you said Varianâs fleet isnât due to arrive for at least another day, probably two.â said Kinndy somberly. âI counted at least eight warships. If they decide to attack before the 7th Legion arrives, we all might as well start eating cactus apple surprises.â
After the Alliance fleet arrives:
âThey were here a few days ago, being very careful to stay inside Horde territory.â said Pained. âIt appears they never truly left.â
This is clear proof of blockade and Horde naval dominance.
Game denies it.
Well, I have quotes for your own quotes.
Your statement is proven false, as the Alliance narrative makes it clear those ships couldnât be defeated.
Try again. For some reason, if I can spy at least eight warships from my Harbor, and I know I canât defeat them, I probably wonât send civilians to them.
See, this are the kind of misconceptions that iâd like to clarify. No acrimony, but we should all get things straight.
It wasnât about the initial attack failing. Garrosh didnât intend the first attack to succeed.
It was a ruse. He wanted the Horde to charge in and have a good fight to, and i quote his words, be able to boast about how they had battled Alliance veterans the likes of Shandris.
He planned for the nuke forehand.
Thats a lot different from stating he aimed at civilians. We know as a fact he didnât as he both proclaimed and thought to himself about the real plan that had him dealing a blow that would destroy as much of the Alliance military as he could.
Going back to quotes from pages 184 and 156 i mean.
And you want to tell me that the guy who let his people have his fun forcing Theramore civilians to fight, while threatening their childrenâs lives, gave explicit orders to let them pass, although it wouldnât have made the situation any worse for him to take them in. Sounds like another random elephant.
Thats like from an entirely different page. Page 107 to be more precise.
Before the 7th Fleet had even arrived.
The one i quoted, was the conclusive and definite outcome of the civilians left on Theramore. Either they boarded the Starsword and sailed to Gadgetzan, or stayed because they wanted to fight. Page 159.
Donât mix quotes.
The one you mentioned was about the civilians around the place while the Horde approached. When plans were made, all the ones left inside the city were offered the choice.
The quote from War Crimes doesnât mention one ship. It says that ALL the children were taken to safety.
But glad you acknowledged Anduinâs quote at least.
It still makes it two different books.
Should i quote Ghargas explicit orders??
It wasnât a blockade. They were in Horde waters, and werenât there to form any kind of blockade.
The orc courier describes the blockade being created after the bombing, and the lone ships that had sailed to Theramore werenât there to blockade anything.
They gave a free pass to any ship that came into the harbour, as they were in Horde waters.
And had explicit orders that were related to any sort of blockade. Again, should i quote them?
Regardless of whether he intentionally lost the first battle or that it was unplanned, he still planned for the nuke so I donât think it changes a lot.
Still⊠ugh, I really need to read Tides of War.
Well he aimed at a civilian settlement?
Thatâs all fine but he nevertheless used a nuke that would have killed everyone present.
I know that Iâm repeating myself, so to sum my position up:
Garrosh decided to attack Theramore because (1) he wanted to conquer Kalimdor and (2) because he felt that Theramore proved a danger to the Horde.
So this means his attack was only aimed at the military, but he also knew that.
There were quite some citizens present in the city, who wouldâve died if he nuked the town.
Now, he disregarded this fact, as he did not care about the civilians. Sure, they let them pass and sure, he didnât intentionally wanted to kill as many civilians possible, but he knew what he was targeting and he did not hold back. Not to mention that Theramore was mostly prepared because Baine actively warned Theramore of the coming attack.
He had no idea how many citizens there were, he had no idea who would die if the bomb fell and yet he dropped it. And apart from that, the homes and memories of the citizens were destroyed, leaving them poor and homeless, seeing their city vanish.
Yes, I know that in the real world, cities were bombed as well, and innocents died too and many of those events arenât branded as war crimes, but as collateral damage. But this is Azeroth, and it was widely agreed upon that nuking Theramore was a war crime, because of the nature of the weapon used, and because of Garrosh being so incautious to who would die.
Am not mixing anything. Merely pointing out that there was no chance for an evacuation, except through Dustwallow. Something you neglected, as the marsh is a deathtrap.
Says who? I have other quotes who deny this.
And how many left? How is this relevant? How many can be pushed onto a single ship? Who can run through Dustwallow marsh? Civilians are civilians.
Kids were spared, cool.
You can quote whatever the hell you want. I showed you that Theramore was surrounded by a fleet that could crush any opposition before the Alliance reinforcements arrive. It had a superior fleet next to its port. No one sane would evacuate people through that.
Again, quote whatever you want. Their orders are meaningless, as the Alliance wouldnât send ships filled with civilians into the jaws of Horde warships.
But we are at the point where you playing dumb, so I donât really care.
It goes into a detailed plan that had military resources, both in people and actual material stuff, allowed to be gathered in Theramore.
About boasting regarding the fact that he lured the Alliance finest into a trap.
And about mentally considering how Baine and Volâjin would praise the brilliance of this plan.
Nothing about aiming for the deaths of civilians as you said he had.
Then address as such the ones that refer to them.
And you are willing to turn a blind eye to two different books created to give a deeper insight regarding what happened, over some npc dialogue?
I mean even if we are to give credit to that gigantic flaw that thrashes not one but two different books, do you have conclusive proof that those were captured under Garrosh orders?
You took the quotes of two different pages. Talking about two different scenarios regarding the same collective.
The fact that its a quote that came after the one you mentioned, and that came into fruition after the generals in charge had finally decided what to do with said civilians just before the siege.
The one you mentioned goes around to state what Jaina did in preparation for the conflict regarding the civilians that lived around Theramore and inside Dustwallow Marsh.
The one i mentioned addresses what to do with said civilians already pilling up inside the city after they had been gathered.
Theramore wasnât surrounded by a fleet, as it is stated repeatedly how said ships were anchored in Horde waters.
Unless you are implying that Theramore as a whole is surrounded by Horde waters.
Marcus states how they were able to enter the city without suffering any kind of deterrence or setback. And then Anduin states that the civilians were succesfully relocated.
With Jaina reinforcing said message by stating a book later that she indeed managed to salvage all the children.
And then we have Ghargaâs orders, the one in charge of said Orc fleet, going into details about how they are NOT to engage against the Alliance, how they are NOT to attack or directly harm/interfere with them, and how they are ONLY to deploy their troops once the nuke has already dropped.
Should i quote the fragment that states how a shaman aided the Alliance ship to reach Gadgetzan? Page 152.
Because when arguments arenât enough, better start insulting. Ok mate
