…because it was about the necessary elements of the plan. Killing civilians certainly wasn’t necessary. But it might still have been planned.
No idea what that has to do with this point.
No, I am saying that either interpretation has flaws, because the facts we got are just inconsistent. One ship seems to have made it out. Civilians were still captured and tortured. Garrosh did not deliberately let civilians go, or if he did, he did so randomly, not because he cared about letting civilians escape.
This is absolute crap. Stop muddying the waters and speak clearly. What quote, what is my mistake. Nice, precise sentences. It won’t kill you.
A stone throw away from Theramore. A superior fleet.
No, I am implying that Theramore’s harbor was firmly positioned underneath the threat of a superior fleet. Meaning that any escaping vessel could be destroyed. Even a child can understand this.
Marcus also says he has seen the same ships, and Marcus has arrived with twenty Alliance ships himself.
The quotes you are referring to are quite clear about the fact that not all civilians escaped. You are insisting on your own, neglecting mine.
This is crap once more, as the Alliance:
Does not know Gharga’s orders.
Will not risk sending a defenseless ship into a superior Horde fleet even if it did know Gharga’s orders.
Go for it, I will cover it with my wowpedia npc screaming about children.
If you wanna act like that, you will be treated like that.
I reaaally don’t want to start typing again book quotes, as transcribing is rather boring, tiring and i rather people just plainly read the damn book.
But i’ll clarify this sequence:
Blood and Thunder comes close to Theramore. NOT leaving Horde waters, but just close enough for the to spy them from their watch-towers.
Upon managing to lure Theramore’s fleet into a tight defensive position around the harbour, they retreat. Giving the upcoming Alliance reinforcements ample room to manoeuvre into the city harbour and further reinforce the city.
Same as you put it.
Same.
Same.
Same.
(I’ll add this one). Gharga receives the rest of her orders, and moves the fleet into the wreckage of the harbour to claim said land and kill whatever survivors are left.
Points 1 and 2 are carried out under Garrosh orders. NO blockade, as it implies Horde measures to prevent the free movement of Alliance ships.
Also, the blockade was the second part of the plan, that had Garrosh spreading his fleet in order to block whatever retaliation might come and pin the rest of the severely hampered Alliance army inside the continent or in their respective strongholds.
We all read the damn book, you are the only one kicking and screaming about how a superior fleet threatening a harbor is not a blockade, because god knows why.
Who is going to sail into the arms of an aggressive enemy?!
You’re right about them not leaving Horde waters, but they are still there.
“They’re there, they’re armed, and they’re just… waiting.”
Wikipedia: A loose blockade is a close blockade where the blockading ships are withdrawn out of sight from the coast (behind the horizon) but no farther. The object of loose blockade is to lure the enemy into venturing out but to stay close enough to strike.
Just wanted to point out that the first attack was a feign used to lure the generals into the city, not because he wanted to kill civilians.
Theramore was hardly a ‘civilian settlement’. It indeed had civilians, but those were neither the target, nor the majority of the population when the nuke dropped.
Garrosh decided to attack Theramore because it was a relevant enemy settlement and one of the strongest harbours the Alliance had on Kalimdor. He indeed wanted to conquer Kalimdor, but also planned said attack in a way that tried to take as many high profile/ranking Alliance generals as he could.
He wasn’t targeting civilians. He might have known there were indeed civilians there, but he wasn’t actively seeking to kill them (he himself clarified his goals and plans after the nuke dropped, both to himself and to the rest of the Horde gathered).
Again, best case scenario you can blame him for collateral civilian deaths. And that still a rather broad and ‘common’ eventuality that happens during war times.
Theramore was considered a war crime because the narrative had the ‘bad guy’ using a nuke. And that’s been demonised by our modern western philosophy.
Its how writers want to portray something ‘bad’ and appeal to our RL feelings regarding war.
People going for the overkill regarding Garrosh targeting civilians, is in my opinion, just stretching it.
Then why bother waiting for them to have the chance to evacuate? Why even allow the military to gather?
Why boast about the military you destroyed and how it was all your plan, if you can simply state you wanted to kill everyone and everything?
Because you wanted a quote that had actual solid proof of Garrosh actually having said plan, instead of preaching about it while internally he had ulterior motives.
That bit proves his plan was indeed about the generals.
Unless you consider he was expecting Baine and Vol’jin to praise his proficiency targeting civilians.
I never said he cared. In fact, i’ve continuously argued about his indifference regarding them.
You (amongst others) were the one that said he aimed at them. That he targeted them.
Thats simply not true.
As you yourself said that the book shows that he wanted to gather the Alliance’s forces and then destroy them for maximum effect. If he nuked Theramore right away, the Alliance would develop countermeasures to it.
What I, and possibly Maglor are saying that Blood and thunder and the rest of the horde fleet being close to Theramore but still in Horde waters is still a blockade, despite there being no indication that Garrosh said to blockade Theramore as an explicit order.
If you interpret the book independently, it may seem that he wasn’t actively targeting civilians, but in the context of the events at SoO, that point becomes moot as it is not that he did not actively target civilians but that he did not care.
Fair enough. I do it myself as well so I don’t mind.
Ok, I’ve had this discussion before but it is a city composed of survivors of the Third War, and while it is also an important military foothold, it still remains a city. It’s a shame it got mixed up in the war during Cataclysm, but otherwise it proved no threat to the Horde in Kalimdor.
From my understanding, he just didn’t care about them. He was pretty much past the stage of being “honourable” I guess. Civilians might not have been his target, but he knew they were going to die, and he did pretty much nothing to stop that.
Not on a scale like this, and that’s emphasised in War Crimes as well.
The definition was accepted upon, and that’s that. And there’s nothing controversial about it, it’s not been used to portray Garrosh worse than what he was, and he even had the right to defend himself/be defended and neither he nor Baine decided to have the discussion whether it was a war crime or not.
I’ve already pointed at several quotes that state that civilians were out of the city, or safe, when the nuke dropped.
I’ve quoted Garrosh literally explaining his motives and reasoning, and several other pieces of the story that further support his intentions.
I’ve said that it would be plausible of him to simply not care about civilians. But taking the circumstances and going the extra mile to state he was targeting them, is simply not true.
Even the NPCs of Siege of Orgrimmar are a debatable point of an already diffuse list of stuff not even War Crimes clarified regarding what orcs like Malkorok did under Garrosh and how much of it was actually ordered by him.
Not all of the civilians escaped Theramore
He wanted to gather the Alliance forces and nuke them for maximum damage to the alliance. That’s true.
Chapter 18
Garrosh continued to rant, almost screaming to be heard. “We waited. On my orders, we waited. We waited until the 7th Legion’s fleet, almost in its entirety, came to Theramore Harbor. We waited until the greatest generals of the Alliance—Marcus Jonathan and Shandris Feathermoon among them—came to the aid of poor Lady Jaina to offer their best soldiers and their brilliant strategies. We waited until Kalecgos of the blue dragonflight came, until five members of the Kirin Tor, including their leader, Rhonin, came. Ships and soldiers, magi and generals, all at Theramore. We threw ourselves at the gates, which our friend Thalen Songweaver weakened for us—and his loyalty was rewarded. While the Alliance focused on us, a small team infiltrated Theramore. Their accomplishments were twofold—they rescued Thalen and were able to cripple the Alliance aerial defenses. And now—we shall wait no longer!”
Malkorok was the right hand man of Garrosh. To say that Garrosh had no idea what he was doing is kind of ridiculous, given that Garrosh is Malkorok’ superior and therefore is responsible for them. Even if he did not know, his lack of opposition to his methods means indifference or acceptance
The name ‘Theramore Citizen’ just means that they’re citizens of Theramore, not that they’re not military. Also, military men and women are allowed to wear clothes that are not their armor. They’re not conclusively non-military civilians. You’re the one claiming that they’re claiming that they’re civilians so the burden of proof is on you. Can you prove that they’re civilians?