Sure, but that’s what I mean. Different specs should excel at different things. If you’re like feral, whom have great utility, offense and decent control, it automatically leads to a hit and run playstyle. That kind of design breeds it.
Just like how having powerful offense and defense will breed specs that does everything they can to maintain uptime, like warrior or even current destro warlock.
That is how design choices matter. If you create specs that are good at everything, they’ll also do everything with no drawback. Same with comps. That’s called RMX.
I’ll take your word on this, I didn’t play back then so I can’t tell.
mate i understand some ppl have rly low clue about pvp balance. but warrior’s fear is not like priest’s fear at all. it uses differently and its not magic. and its longer cd than priest fear.
disarm is exactly the same on the other hand. but worse than monk’s one.
so just like with fear it wud make sense to nerf monk’s disarm cd or buff warrior’s disarm.
coz u cant just give 1 worse spell for 1 class and better spell for other class.
there is shud be some down point of having “better” spell. like nerf its cd.
Yeah, they’re different, and they belong to different classes.
So, as you just outlined Warrior and Monk Disarm are both different - just in a different way.
No, It wouldn’t. They belong to different classes and should be designed and balanced based on that classes (or specs) total toolkit, as well as their intended strengths and weaknesses. Abilities shouldn’t be designed in some kind of “it has to be equaaaaaal” vacuum.
Yes, yes you can.
There already are other “down points” countering this in the general design of WW. Or maybe there aren’t. But the core problem is not that the spells have to be the same, or that there needs to be a specific “down point” to that particular spell just because you have a similar, but weaker, version of a spell in another classes toolset.
That was the context. You said its a hit and run spec, but its not on purpose, its because they die if they keep pushing.
Not curious at all since all specs had a lot more stuff and/or shorter cds back then. Rogues, Mages and Destros got pruned the less.
Compare that with a Warrior. In the past they were able to stop a poly with Charge stun (2 charges), Pummel, SR, MSR, Stun, Fear and lining (intervene, etc.). Today they only have Stun, SR and Pummel left (Pummel with 50% more cd).
And thats for a lot of specs/classes. WW had paralysis on 15 sec cd (45 secs now), FoF stun on <=24 secs (no FoF stun anymore), LS on 45? sec cd (60 secs now).
What did Rogue and Mage drop? A perma wall to a wall on a crazy short cd so you dont even realize a difference? Or what about mages? Sure, they dropped a stun but can therefor blink while casting et cetera. The CC in MoP was already crazy and that while we had a lot more stuff back then to interrupt.
Not sure if this is out of context since I havent read it all, but still a point to keep in mind when comparing your class with other classes.
And if you had read the rest of my comment, you’d have seen me saying
Because
We could just give everyone Dstance and we’d all be warriors with a few niches. Not everyone is supposed to have great defensives, just like not everyone is supposed to have great control (warrior). It’s what sets specs apart.
If we are to apply logic, which is never a good idea in games, but Imma do it anyway in this situation, then a plated warrior is probably slightly more durable than a cat.
Im not here to discuss about the design, Im just saying they made the spec like this because of its terrible defense.
Btw: The usage of Rally is really strong. Its strength is just scaling with the comp. VS RMX, Jungle or WW+FDK its insanely strong if used correctly because its making the difference between dying and surviving but vs a comp like Boomy+Shadow its strength is barely existing.
Rally is very strong versus any kind of burst comp but useless versus sustained dmg.
Which is why I said context. My discussion with Shadenox was about design.
I agree, it’s not useless and has clear strengths but I wouldn’t call it a real defensive. If it healed it’d be one of the best in the game.
It’s like you got HP in a bank account, and you can withdraw it at will, but after a few seconds you gotta deposite it back and can’t withdraw it again for some time.
The importance behind rally is that you can drag games out so long until your healer is able to recover (for example after a cc chain) and this is what rally does. The damage loss after the duration fades is easily outhealed.
but thank god devs not that stupid and there is no single ability exactly the same with same cd for different classes in this game.
except disarm.
and double monk stacking and and being able to get top10 of ladder in 3s surely doesnt mean monks are broken.
right.
so lets just give up and pretend like monks are not broken and let double monk flow and win in 3s game after game up to 2.8 cr and pretend its not class issue?
Permanent wall as you mentionned, Combat Readiness, Disarm, Gouge, Preparation, Shurikens, Premeditation, crit passive on ambush, and I’m sure I could go on.
Would you call NS a strong offensive spell? Because thats kinda the opposite design.
Rally is not supposed to heal, its supposed to make it harder to burst someone down in a stun. The more hp they have to kill, the better are your chances to survive the go. Sure, you can die if you wont be healed up after, but it will still make it harder to kill someone in a stun. Thats the intention of the spell and therefor its really really strong. Especially since most comps these days are mainly based on setups and burst momentum.
Thats exactly what I was thinking when I read that. How can you still deny that warrior is a tier 1 class?!
Not really. If NS damaged you and then healed you back after a while, I would consider it the same. NS practically always gets healed through, so the falloff is non-existant.
I don’t disagree, but do you also consider Battlemaster trinket really really strong as well then? It’s essentially the same thing.
Rally on its own is… pretty poor I’d say. Pick up Master & Commander and its power quadrupples, making it a much greater spell. Too bad it sacs a PvP talent, and it’s often times not worth picking over something else.
Yeah and you got the same wall on a very short cd. So you just cant spam it anymore, but the major point behind it: you dont have to! So there is no difference at all, they just made the usage a little bit more skillful!
There are quite a few another defensive spells you listed and beside that Im not sure if that are all spells you had as Assa Rogue, guess what: Rogues are still not a class you can train and kill!
Or take Ambush: When was that ever used in PvP as Assa? Im pretty sure we can count the situations with one hand. You basically always went for cheap shot and garrote.
BUT: Other classes have dropped defense and utility as well, but you still have stun lock on a ridiculous short cd, silence, etc. Same for Mage. So in terms of RMX you actually havent dropped anything important and they havent increased the cds. And thats the difference between those classes/comps and the other classes/comps.
Thats 30% of the UDK “damage” and beside Mana Rift the best mana burning spell ingame. So personally I would call it a very strong offensive spell. Sure, if it ran out because you hadnt uptime to deal damage its pointless. But thats the same for Rally if you use it without the enemies doing damage.
I do and thats why I wear it versus some comps when I know that I probably will be there target or at least a hard swapped target. RMX and Jungle for example!
Ait dude, you are as biased as Tom. No wonder that warriors are always crying. You have a T1 class and sell it as a trash tier class. What do you need to be happy? A macro “/kill arenaN” to think your class is T1?
I agree, but it’s not really relateable to Rally. Sure the damage might fall off after a millenia, but NS just about always gets healed through because it quite literally is a threat.
After a match DK will have done 30% dmg with NS and a warrior 0% healing with Rally, because all benefits are taken away after the spell ends. All benefits are not taken away from NS because it hardly ever runs out.
I put it forward pretty clear; Rally in its base version is not strong. 15% temporary health for 10 sec on a 3 min CD. What a killer.
Bring in Master and Commander, and it’s 30% temporary health on a 1 min CD, which is a complete game changer. I was wrong when I said quadrupple, it’s more than that.
Warrior has the damage and utility of a T1 spec. But you can’t claim them to be T1, not when they got the defensives that they have.
“But Dstance!!” yeah this ability is powerful, but it doesn’t cut it on its own. Next defensive in line is parry on a 3 min CD, else there is nothing else besides CDs. Actual T1 specs have abilities like Death Strike, Expel Harm/Karma/RoP/, Blur/Dance/RfA, Feint/Cloak/Evasion, which are actual good defensive kits with passive defensives and major ones on lower CDs.
I’ve been saying it for months; the only thing holding warrior back is their poor defense.
If the SL changes were to hit now, with the addition of Ignore Pain and Shield Block, arms warrior would be the #1 spec in the game, I don’t doubt it for a second. But it’s not, and warrior is still one shotable, even in Dstance.
A killer that is deciding games in the right hands. Sure, with M&C its a lot stronger, but the purpose design overall doesn’t change. It’s there to prevent getting killed in stuns and therefor it’s doing a great job!
Its intended purpose doesn’t make it do a great job. The thing is, Rally might be intended to stop bursts, but why pick that ability when you got something like Ring of Peace. You can RoP 4 times before Rally comes off of CD, and I’d argue it prevents more than just 15% of your hp vs teams like jungle.
Talent M&C and it can rival it potentially.
It’s my point here, Rally doesn’t give you anything, but time to react, while other abilities actually reduces the punishment you take.
Indeed, but I guess WW doesnt have warbanner, duel, etc. And I would also guess that a bladestorming warrior etc. would care more about Rally than RoP.
RoP is without a question a very strong and annoying spell, but it has also a lot of “play around weaknesses” and beside disarm it’s the only defensive cd ww has to peel his mates. Not to mention that RoP is a talent and Rally baseline.
Personally I would prefer Warbanner+Rally a lot more than RoP vs burst comps like RMX or Jungle.
