I feel you are not playing WotLk, because everything you say about WotLk is wrong. Rogue was and will be one of the strongest classes in WotLk, next to DK, Warlock, Paladin and Warrior.
Shaman is mediocre at best.
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Rogue is the weakest it ever was in wotlk, you are wrong right there. DK is nerfed out of the gate, but still A Tier.
Warlock might be B Tier even lol
Better class design than in retail does not equal good pvp scaling.
You are right about Paladin, Warrior and Shaman they are all S Tier.
How could you tell, WotLk isn’t even live. And back in WotLk your whole “assumption” is wrong.
WoD? Lat comment was entirely about Wotlk. Do i have to post actually links for proof or can you use google search?
In any case stop overrating rogue, just because he was good in TBC Classic and Retail.
Rogue is greatly nerfed at lvl80 in wotlk, there is currently only lvl70 in prepatch wotlk classic it means nothing scaling is not @80 many classes are strong that will be weak in the actual wrath season, some will remain strong, like warrior.
MoP is another example of a very weak rogue expansion, maybe much worse than wotlk. Glads struggled even in the first season of MoP, however, blizz will use always the last balance patch so it wouldn’t be too harsh on the rogue the very next time when a possibly MoP classic launches.
Sub Rogues obviously opness, particular in wpvp that this section of the forum is all about, started in legion, before legion happened, sub rogues were manageable and harder to play and actually eaten alive by feral.
And btw, FYI, stop beeing that special snowflake case, dozens of PvP Wrath Tier lists are avaible that you can look into the reasions why rogue isn’t going to be S Tier material in Wrath - actually Sub shadowdance only made it to A Tier, because of RM/RMP.
Dunno what else to say, sub is much harder to play in wrath than retail, because of positioning and unforgivingness to play the class, 1 error and you are cut in half by any plate class and resets are harder to do, with no possiblity to vanish and come back with full health on your own.
And combat/assa just gets kited by range DD 24/7 without hope to break the cycle of kiting.
If ganking lowies from stealth is S tier, then ok, rogue is always S tier, i am merely talking about pvp.
I got the feeling you never played a rogue at all? Please stop spreading missinformation, ok?
i want legion rogues back i want to be avable to hit 2 mill with DFA again 
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Yeah, i played sub rogue in legion and older addons, sub was good in wod, too, but required way more precision to do well, it was great with the leggo that lets you use feint with will of valeera legendary(in wpvp only what was a shame), that combined made you as strong as a tank. Feint had less cd if any, gave talented like 30%-50% less enemy dmg on you and healed you for 20% hp. Basicly no cd. Then the unlimited vanishes with vanish powder from the class hall, mantle of the master assassin for the 100% crit as you could wear 2 leggo later on.
Still people complain about rogues in SL(as we are talking wpvp) in SL(that hardly got wpvp to begin with) they are strong too, but certainly not as broken op as in legion wpvp, those rogues were absolutely unkillable, in a way, guardian druids are in retail, but dealing much more burst and cc than them.
Basicly the only real wpvp dd that was a huge pain in legion, were basicly tanks and disc priest dominated wpvp, however rogues could easily run from these.
Compared to wotlk rogues(In wpvp, right, not arena rmp etc) they could annoy you with cc and resets maybe burst you as clothie with shadowdance, maybe grind you down as assassin, but you always got a chance as wotlk rogues are squishy, after cds they tank no dmg whatsoever heal nothing and die in a few gcds by random abilities without major cd usage.
People also seem to have forgotten, that DKs, especially unholy completely counter rogues, what is clearly not the case in retail. Because they can prevent their dmg and resets with their frost presence and pets and just heal up after a failed go, where as the rogue usually is on the run to a more valid target.
I read all the forum and tears of rogues complaining about dks in wpvp, back in original wotlk, maybe it was their overtuned S5 phase in the original wotlk launch, or, what i personally assume just the reasions i gave above, frost presence reduce physical dmg much + death strike heals and cds that heal, pet following them around corners the high parry rate, the 95% slow chains - that are still there basicly unnerfed.
And did not check ferals much in wrath, but i am pretty sure they eat rogues alive with faery fire still intact.
Here is this lovely thing of beauty the bane of rogues:
It even reduces armor!
You think this isn’t serious business, when the best rogue back in the days on my server who was a R1 Rogue lost vs a feral all his duels, despite beeing the much better player and the feral said so himself.
The beauty of wrath pvp is, the game has so many ways to bring down rogues, its not even funny.
Some of that certainly needs to be in retail for sure, like DF.
we got the 100% cirt lego from legion but the 500% damage lego got turned in to 500% shiv damage 
It’s even worse now with the resonator trinket. It is the most stupidly broken class in the entire game , all 3 specs are S++++ tier and Blizzard won’t do anything about it.
Imagine putting a 7sec stun on a 20sec cooldown , no matter which of the three specs he plays , you’re basically straight up dead every time he presses kidney shot. Great game design.
But don’t worry, they nerfed eviscerate for 10%.
I meant WotlK. First it’s not live yet, second in old WotLk Rogues were absolutely top3 class in pvp/arena.
He is indirectly asking if the Rogue used any major cooldowns. If he didn’t, there is no way a mail-wearer would die in 1 kidney (unless extreme gear difference). And if trinket was traded for 0 offensive CD’s, the fight is already lost anyway.
Yes, Rogues are extremely powerful in WPvP, and frankly, they’re supposed to be (like Ferals for example). I don’t really think it’s fair to compare Enhance to Rogues as a foundation for balance. There are a plethora of specs that naturally fare a lot better against Rogues than Enhance.
the thing is:
can you call something on a 30s cd or whatever it is as a major CD anymore? because the CD isn’t major anymore either.
Sub rogue does not need blades to delete you in a kidney.
And aside from that, even if I come out of the kidney, he could just press evasion and laugh for 10s.
in a straight 1v1 I don’t really think there is any class currently that could be a rogue. Rogues have to many resets in general.
I don’t mind rogues being strong but their kit makes is just incredible annoying to play against one.
They are annoying to fight, that’s for sure. It’s kind of their class fantasy, haha.
Even without blades, though, a Rogue will need more than just dance to kill you. Kyrian, symbols, cold blood for example. While they’re relatively short CD’s, they are still CD’s that aren’t spamable. Dance is a minimum to even deal damage as Sub, you don’t even tickle targets without it. Compare this to Enhance, who will kill you if they manage to stay on top of you, often without a single CD, just because of the way WF and SS works.
I’m not saying you should’ve bene able to beat that Rogue, I’m just saying that in general it’s not impossible to beat one. A point to remember is that Enhance is mainly a smorc-spec. The Enhance kit is largely centered around the ‘let me hit things’-playstyle, and so it naturally doesn’t fare well against a class that’s designed to be able to choose when it’s engaged in combat and not. There are a lot of classes/specs that are better suited to beat Rogues than Enhance Shaman. Every ranged spec in the game will probably have a better chance, while most other melee specs can deal with some of their CC/damage in ways that Enhance just can’t. Enhance does not possess:
- DoTs
- Bleeds
- Instant CC
- Good mobility
- Range (except during Ascendance)
- Immunity to Sap
All of which are either useful or just mandatory to stand a good chance of beating a half decent Rogue. Fight a Pala, DH, Warrior, DK, SPriest, Warlock etc. and you’ll have much better chance. If you wanna beat a Rogue 1v1 specifically, you should probably reroll spec or class or hope that Dragonflight does the trick (Rogues can’t heal to full in stealth anymore).
Bad news then, they clearly can do it in DF and its probably baseline for all 3 specs, thanks to this great design:
Soothing Darkness was reworked just a few weeks ago, it wasn’t included in the alpha but returned and the heal seems broken for sub. 30% hp back for every shadowdance and restealth along with recuperator(it made it to DF hehe) and crimson vial+iron stomach, that can be used in all 3 specs, since for whatever reasion, blizzard thinks its a great idea to pump all the def talents into 1 baseline class tree. On top of all this, the talents aren’t even competing with each other as used to be are on different talent rows in the tree, you just can add cheat death or elusiveness
Ok, the sub tree got shadow dust reducing cds and some absorb shield for vanishes and restealths on top of all that.
Bet DF will make the ultimate TANK rogue dream happen for sure - Perhaps he does no dmg anymore with all that, but lets see.
DF rogue design is pretty close to the Legion rogue design when it comes to tankiness.
Devs probably saw Pikaboo losing rogue duels vs Venruki who played shadowpriest and the overhaul with more tank talents was released for rogues slightly after that.
Because that should never happen, that a shadowpriest can tank all 3 rogues specs in a duel without effort, thats not what World of Warcaft class balance stands for. 
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i remeber in TBC when ambush hit for like 90% of ur enemys Hp now the damage is a joke …
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