Hey, I wasn’t referring to Bebbi’s recent Fyrakk kill on DH. It wasn’t even planned, we were missing a DH that day with not too much prior warning so he just logged DH.
I was thinking of his run on prot warr during Aberrus, but I had misremembered the amount of bosses he did. He only did 7/9 due to a buyer & an offspec tank.
Bebbì-Ravencrest.
My bad on the exaggeration, I had misremembered the situation hard.
And, to this, the answer is no. I don’t think the whole raid should be severely undergeared & still be able to clear Mythic. However, I do think tank is the exception, as the role has been very much skill based for many years now. If the tank is good enough, why should they not be able to tank the boss? They’d do no damage for sure (natural due to lack of gear), but they should be able to live if they’re good enough.
Again, in my opinion, the fact that this is possible, is simply bad game design. The tank’s role means that it’s progression is done by ensure that it can survive more and more. If this is soft-capped at an early point (gear), then it also should be soft-capped for damage dealers and healers.
I respect you opinion, I just disagree with it.
Also, if we just take this design, then comparatively, tanking IS easier than the other roles. Sure, comes with a lot of responsiblity, but if they are able to do the fight a x item level, and the fight requires x+30 item level from damage and heal roles, then at appropiate x+30 item level tanking is naturally going to be far easier.
When you compare tanks/healer to DPSes dont forget an important factor:
Healers and tanks are capped. DPS are not. What do I mean by that?
Tanks: Damage taken is a fixed X amount. If you can survive that X amount, MORE tankiness brings nothing of value.
Healers: Damage received is a fixed X amount. If you can heal that X, MORE HPS brings nothing of value. It even has a name: its called “over-healing”.
DPS: The boss has X life. Doing MORE dps actually does bring something of value: The boss dies sooner.
That is why, back in the day DPS got gear first. And as everyone got more and more geared, you ran raids with less and less healers. Same with tanks. In my raid, we do Fyrakk with 1 DK tank instead of 2. No need for more. That is what “more tankiness” brings to the table.
But this conundrum is built in into the system. Its the way things are and IMO it cant be changed.
But because of this universal inevitability of the game, it creates unintended problems. Like the whole discussion with healers and 1-shots. Or if Healers should heal or do DPS… that type of thing.
ALL THAT comes from the fact that more HPS brings nothing of value.
And tanks are in the same boat. Its just that its not an issue (for now). But ANY changes to how tanks deal with damage received must have a “WARNING” attached to it. Otherwise you will end up just like the healers and their problems.
If it’s possible for an average player to complete a certain content difficulty on a max geared tank, it’s going to be possible for a highly skilled player to complete the same difficulty on a much lower geared tank.
If they tune tank specs so that every error is deadly, all those average players will keep dying and failing and (ultimately) give up tanking. There’s already a shortage of players who want to play tank specs. Why would they want to make that shortage even worse?
Sounds to me that all they have to do to avoid failing an giving up is… To get better gear by doing lower difficulty content… Like all the other roles do.
Sure they do. I’ve encountered far more dps and healers than I have tanks who are obviously playing above their skill level in mythic plus.
And I have to ask what gear has to do with it. Your complaint is that tanks who are overgeared for the content they’re doing - tanks like you, in fact - don’t have to play perfectly to stay alive. What will getting “better gear” change when they’re already overgeared?
I don’t know at which point have I stated that. I must have worded my views very poorly.
To give an example, let’s take an encounter (either a single raid boss fight or an M+ run) which needs 460 ilvl Damage Dealers and Healers to execute, if they are playing expertly.
My issue is that a 440 ilvl tank can participate and execute the encounter without problem.
To be fair, if no such fight exist, because it would also accommodate 440 ilvl healers, then I would nerf them (or buff unavoidable encounter damage) as well.
So let’s take this example and expand on it.
Let’s take ToTT +30. Based on data from RIO, it takes a minimum of 485 ilvl to tank this particular key in time - it must require that because no tank has done it with lower ilvl, and they certainly would if it was possible. Based on your argument, the lowest required ilvl for dps and healers ‘if they are playing expertly’ to time this key is 505 ilvl. Hmm…
I do expect you are smarter than this. The game is not, should not and will not be balanced for above +20 runs.
According to YOUR example (not mine), since only outlaw, spriest, fmage, balance and aug manage to clear it, the other DD specs has no chance to clear even a +5.
Which is of course nonsense.
Now that we established what is the baseline (+2 to +20), since you would like to stick to mythic plus, how does your example fares?
I wish I could find the stats on tank item level.
“We” didn’t establish that. You announced it and tried to dictate the parameters of the discussion based on your opinion. Since I don’t take part in conversation where the boundaries are based on someone else’s made up rules, I’ll just leave you with the suggestion to do content that’s appropriate for your gear level before you judge what’s “too easy”.
Remove key depletion. Stop making me play a key level I’ve already succesfully completed.
Unfortunately this has went to a “How to tune Tanks discussion”, but thank you for the Whishlists in the first couple of posts. I think there are some valid points in those. Especially my own list, hehe. Let’s hope Blizzard at least picks something out of this and implements one thing or the other. It’s not like those things are too complicated and mostly are straight up benefits a vast majority of players would be happy with.
Cheers
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