But… why would anybody do that? I mean that’s just straight up an incorrect model. It’s not even incomplete, it’s just wrong.
That’s true, certainly, but 33 iLvL’s has always been big. It should be noted, however, that item levels did not work the same way they do today until Mists of Pandaria.
It’s complete garbage. These mistakes weren’t here when the game launched, or even after several expansions. Blizzard slowly invented them all over time, and now I’m supposed to be happy that they put a completely transparent band-aid over it, so that I can still see the wound underneath and get queasy over it?
Come on. Stop bandaiding and fix the game, and stop letting the tail (raids having 4 difficulties) wag the dog (literally everything else)
Would it really? I mean when we entered Legion, we did like 120k DPS. Normal Emerald Nightmare gave and we were at 200k DPS. By the time I defeated Argus Mythic, we were doing around 2 million DPS.
10 fold increase or more. One expansion.
1/4th of that would be a 2.5 fold increase. More than enough to sustain an expansion. What they’re doing right now is ridiculous. I don’t even think you can appreciate how out of control it’s getting.
I am not going to argue with someone who entertains the idea to cut out a raid difficulty or honestly has no problem with 3.75 ilvls between difficulties lol!
I mean if you think vanilla damage calculation wasn’t even more insane I’d like to point you towards people theorizing 14 years later that it MIGHT be possible to make Feral an actually useful DPS spec.
The only reason the complexity of current stuff is even being talked about is because it finally became “simple” enough to do so.
Also talking about 300 to 475 in BFA vs the Legion ilvls when we both know exponential growth means at those levels the increase of 1 ilvl is not even comparable to current. You literally tried to pretend that applies to this range to prove oh cutting it down to 1/4th would be totally fine.
On the other hand using my calc to show the power of 33 ilvls, duh I didn’t use exponential growth when we can’t calc it and no one would understand. I did specifically say I left it out. If you wanna make a point show me 33 ilvl difference by equipping 300 and 335-330 gear(and not by equipping or putting on trash, since again higher ilvl has exponential growth, a guy wearing 400 gear with few trash pieces will be better geared than someone in actual such gear)
But seriously though, I’m of the mindset that LFR and Heroic just straight up shouldn’t exist. We don’t need them, and we never have. In the former case, that’s obviously people who don’t want to raid. Take the story outside of raids and stop forcing people to raid to follow the lore, if they don’t want to. In the latter case, Heroic is just normal except a little harder. The latter half of normal is harder than the early half of Heroic. The two overlap so completely that there’s almost no point to both existing. Yeah, not all guilds would be able to clear Heroic Jaina, but Heroic Jaina is harder than the first 3 Mythic bosses, which is maybe a little bit extreme, especially when it isn’t an optional boss.
So yeah, I guess that’s that. Sue me. Anyway, this isn’t a thread about LFR and Heroic mode raids anyway; this is a thread about gear scaling, so let’s get back to that: Gear scaling is introduced because we have too much power growth without it. If raids are forcing our hands to do something like this, then there’s a problem with raiding. We can’t retune the whole game around the existance of raids. It’s ridiculous.
There’s a difference between complexity and complication. The WoW vanilla system is very intuitive and easy to understand, but because of all the different talent and item combinations, it holds enormous complexity that isn’t terribly obvious. That’s good!
The current combat system is very simple. There are only 4 stats you can actually choose between, and then there’s 7 talent choices you can make, and the rotation is very carefully deliberated and designed. You don’t have a lot of wiggle room to improve in this system, and there isn’t much to discover. That’s bad. On top of that, the game makes it almost impossible to tell what you actually can do by applying hidden factors and scaling everywhere, causing people to have to, in the words of Blizzard, “obsessively sim”. That’s even worse.
Nah, we’ve been simcrafting since vanilla. Simcrafting vanilla is very simple, but finding the optimal items in vanilla is very hard, because of it’s complexity. Therefore people do not need to obsessively sim on classic, but they do now.
Well we’re quite well on track. So far my members’ average DPS has increased 4-fold since dinging from around 6k to 24k single target, and we’re not even halfway through the expansion, and as you point out it’s exponential.
Everything’s right on schedule. This isn’t really surprising anyway, since Blizzard didn’t change it.
You didn’t show the power of 33 item levels though. You just made it up.
Sorry, I don’t have time to spend days getting a gear of such a low item level at this stage in the game just to prove a point against some random guy on the official WoW forums.
Firstly I did not make it up, Blizzard is the one that falsely but constantly states that 1 ilvl is roughly 1% I just showed the base line number at which it will be greater.
Secondly did you actually work on vanilla simming’s behind the scenes calcs? Because when you have exponentially more to work with than the 5 we have now I can guarantee it was much more complex and likely much less accurate. Again what made gearing far easier was how badly stated out items were with most useless or usable by on “spec” that may not even be good.
Next, LFR has no effect on the item level increases, it matches base Mythic Dungeons, so that ilvl jump to normal would exist with or without it. For Heroic logically you make sense, but then that leads to one of the most popular difficulties being removed, Mythic and LFR are the least egregious logically with one being the most challenging content the other as I just said inconsequential in the discussion pertaining to ilvl increases, yet are both the least ran in a premade setting. A good chunk of the raiding guilds would lose their preferred content if you made this decision, so it will never ever happen. People are livid when everyone gets a waterwalking improvement overall but people are outraged that the water strider had its innate ability removed and you want a tier gone to fix a problem that only exists because your brain can’t accept that power growth in world content is regulated behind the scenes.
You deal the same DPS in anything not called PvP, you have the same health and take damage the same way and the only thing that is ruining your and other’s experience is that you cannot wrap your heads around that the worth of ilvl in world content is decreased because otherwise it collapses.
Let me be clear, raid tiers, scaling etc are just scapegoats, the sole problem is what WoW always had and always will have, multiplicative stats. Until Haste, Crit, Vers and Mastery don’t stack with each other and main stat additively problems like this will continue existing, and fixing would dumb down itemization and character progression to the basest levels this will keep happening(and wow is not really compatible with the tried and true formats of main stat being the only thing to affect your damage and every other stat not doing that, cough DnD, pathfinder, CRPGs etc)
You’re playing a class that, as DPS, heals a good chunk per NPC killed and is one of the specs with highest AoE damage and CC.
Unless you’re playing the outdoor content as a healer (which will obviously make it slower), you really shouldn’t have any problem with pulling large packs, provided you do your rotation right and have picked your talents well (which isn’t hard to have since, as for today, WW are stuck with only one cookie-cutter build).
Okay, but you just admitted that primary stats are exponential, and as we just explored it gets multiplied by a 4th degree polynomial scaling from the secondary stats, too, so if we go up 25 item levels, with each one improving us 1% along the way, we’re dealing with a 28% improvement just from the primary stats alone, and when you factor in all the other stuff like azerite powers and secondary stats? It’s WAY more than 25%.
You know it, I know it, Blizzard knows it.
Experience has shown me that improving around 120 iLvL’s in BfA increases your damage 4 fold. That I can guarantee you. That’s observable.
Well you couldn’t really sim a complete vanilla fight, because it just doesn’t really make sense. There is no singular rotation. There is no DPS that constantly DPS’s by chaincasting. Nobody can afford it. There are tradeoffs between mana and damage, and so on.
But these are all complexities that arise beceause of player agency and player choice. They do not arise because it is difficult to work out how much damage a Backstab does, and that is a critical distinction I want to impress on you, because this is quite different to the current situation.
We’re suddenly squabbling over names here. Heroic may be the preferred raiding difficult of many, but it’s also functionally identical to Normal, and only slightly harder. It seems much harder because of the item level requirement and the gap that creates, but usually it’s just an extremely trivial mechanic being added in.
The last bosses are overtuned, the first bosses are fine. Whether it’s Heroic that goes or Normal that goes is besides the point. The point is that we need to compress the item level gap somewhat, and for that to happen, we need to stop having multiple bosses giving wildly different quality loot that have the same difficulty. It’s a waste of space on the iLvL ladder, as it were, and it’s also actually pretty unfair to all sides of this.
It does indeed collapse, but trying to tell me that I should be happy about getting upgrades, only then then mess those upgrades up beyond recognition, giving them one value in PvE instances, another in the open world, and a third in PvP instances, just dilutes the whole thing into a meaningless mess of numbers. It’s very disheartening to each such a reward.
I’d rather have a smaller reward if I knew what the heck it was.
I actually agree, but I don’t think just making it linear would do it at this point. Even assuming linear scaling, it would run amok just because of the sheer diversity in reward strength.
Don’t want to sound like a noob, but what exactly are those skills?
As of November when I left off dps main, monks were primarily a single-target dps class. We came to raids to smack the boss, not to shine on trash.
I have Storm Earth and Fire - 2 charges on a cooldown - which lets me target up to 3 mobs. That is not a large pack, it is… 3. And it’s a long cooldown. Fists of Fury doesn’t stun any more, and it doesn’t hit like it used to in MoP/WoD. Spinning Crane Kick is… mostly for LFR trash.
I have a ranged CC for a single target, and an AoE stun every 45 seconds. Arguably I have my Quaking Palm racial, mostly I save that as a backup interrupt.
My combat healing requires me to kill things and pick up a chance of a drop. Other than that I got a 3-sec cast for about 10-15k.
Unless everything has changed in the last patch? I’ve not played much since xmas, and my gear is still Uldir level. Maybe I just need to step back into things and get some welfare 400s?