Because of overgear from Naxx and Ulduar. And 10x tank threat instead of current 4x modifier. Anything can be chain pulled if tank has to press one button for mobs to stick to him.
The first two ICC dungeons weren’t so bad I’m my opinion. But to this day I have PTSD of Halls of Reflection.
I think only 30% of groups I’ve had in this dungeon were able to complete it.
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I pugged in Vanilla and dungeon and raid finders are like pugs - it was how I got my gear and why i kept playing. Finders are like pugs and to me at least a great idea. Even hardcore guild players will use them to catch up or get that piece that the mainstay guild group may not want to revisit.
There are pros and cons in everything - economically finders make sense.
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Halls of reflections was fun one, especially Frostmourne encounter. Dps and tanks LoSed mobs and crawled into corner where my resto tree was, climbing on it in panic as Los angle shrinked. Good times…
Ive always wondered about that. I noticed in heroics mobs are hard and bosses easy. That is not how I remember the game from 2007-2008
Then maybe both styles of play should be present in a dungeon, instead of it being just one or the other.
They dumbed it down at the same time as they introduces RDF. There’s no cause and effect in this.
And no, 3.3.0 was not the end of Wrath, neither in time, nor in content. It was the middle in time and the apex of the contents - or what should have been the climax were it not for the dumbing down.
Could this be caused by all classes now having stuns and interrupts?
Nope, dungeons were not dumbed down - players were made OP.
Did you really expect a tool that came halfways through Wrath to be in TBCC?
Yes they were decently hard in Phase 1. But by the time TOC came they were already a joke. Wrath simply had way better catch up mechanics and people were pumping way bigger numbers.
its been a long time, i was under the impression the df tool was in the game during TBC but i was wrong
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The Dungeon Finder was introduced in 3.3.0.
Patch 3.3.2 included several nerfs across all dungeons. Some nerfs were probably made with the intent of speeding things up.
People who say that dungeons were already easy are not wrong, but that does not change the fact that they were made easier after the introduction of the Dungeon Finder.
So why, then, did they nerf heroics in Cataclysm near one month into the expansion? Was it not because of the Dungeon Finder?
Hark, the wrathbabies do sing…
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Yes there was some - not major - nerfs to dungeons in patch 3.3.2, but the reason we steamrolled through dungeons after LFD is NOT nerfs to the Dungeons and Raids, but patch 3.3.0 making players OP.
Dungeons were made easier all the time, players were made stronger all the time, it did not all happen with dungeon finder.
If you just glance through patch notes, you’ll consistently see [player ablilty] A, B and C up from X to Y, CD reduced … while [NPC/Boss/mob ability] D, E and F is dovn from Y to X, NN now only cast X times [ability], down from Y.
This went faster from Wrath onwards, it can be because of the RDF tool, it can also be caused by the influx of many, many new players wanting to have their piece of the cake (catching up) as well.
So blame it on the Wrath babies … yes
Blame it on RDF … maybe.
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I blame it entirely on the Dungeon Finder. There were vanilla babies and TBC babies as well. I remember my time as a newb in TBC, and how many obvious mistakes I did and how people likely had to carry me. I talked with these people, befriended some, and over time learned how to play.
The Dungeon Finder does not encourage communication at all. The Dungeon Finder does not require you to pull your own weight. Can you find your AoE button you’re sure to pull off at least a mediocre performance. The Dungeon Finder does allow anyone to play dungeons with anyone – and that could be seen as a positive trait! But that environment already exists in retail, and if classic is to differentiate then the Dungeon Finder has to go.
I applaud Blizzard for their decision making in this and I look forward to see how they intend to maintain a challenge in heroics throughout the expansion.
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I don’t mind the Dungeon finder one way or another. I just think blaming everything on it is not true.
The “hardness” or whatever to call it of the game began getting less already with BC. For instance a Hunter’s auto-attack suddenly change from ranged to melee and even back again automatically with BC, I do not have to do anything at all. This only as an example of players getting ‘better’ all the time.
EDIT:
If you look through the old patch note, you’ll notice that while the Vanilla patches consist mostly of renaming, splitting, consolidating etc. spells and abilities and adding Quests, recipes … and bug fixes and more bug fixes; the patches from BC onwards is mostly buffing players and debuffing NPCs.
For sure, the move towards more convenience has been present throughout WoW’s lifespan, even in Vanilla and TBC. There were many underlying factors as to why WoW became what it became (and now is). At the time, the Dungeon Finder was most likely a preemptive response to a problem we’ve seen in Classic – the decline in subscribers. In this way the Dungeon Finder was, on paper, an excellent solution.
But whether Blizzard were able to see the consequences it would have on the social climate is harder to say – but the consequences were real. I also think that Blizzard have made attempts to counter these consequences. The Mythic Dungeon is proof of this: no automated grouping, no immediate travel and challenge being a core part of the concept. And in my experience the Mythic Dungeon has been successful. I’ve had quite a few social encounters in the Mythic Dungeon. It’s anecdotal evidence, I know, but I actually met someone (from another server*) through the Mythic Dungeon who became a friend for real, and who I’ve now played other games with.
These sort of “social happenings” have never happened in normal or heroic dungeons. If you’re lucky people will at least greet you back if you say “hi” at the beginning, and if you’re real lucky they’ll even bother to type “gg” before teleporting out.
*The parenthesis is important because a WLK dungeon finder would not allow me to regroup with a player from another server. That was a later invention.
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3.3.0 saw some significant buffs and overall changes to classes, yeah. But it’s far from the only patch that saw such changes. Unholy DKs, for example, got most of their buffs in 3.2. The whole idea that the game was difficult until 3.3.0 turned it into a joke is about as sensible as those who used to think that Vanilla was difficult until 1.12 turned it into a joke.
I patently say the opposite of what you say, I say 
“consistently” meaning that it was not in 3.3.0 that everything hallemned, but that it was a gradual thing (decline) beginning as I see it from BC onwards.
Ok fair enough, but isn’t it the case with all versions of WoW? Has there ever be a version of WoW that hasn’t seen significant changes (mostly buffs, and some few nerfs) to classes throughout the patches?
What? The number of subscribers practically rose until Cata.
Here you lost me. Retail is not my game. I do not pretend to understand the dungeon-yet not-dungeon finder of Retail. Won’t spend brain cells on this.
I only know what I experienced, the ease of trawelling to and from a dungeon made me rum way more dungons (relative way more as in 2 a week maybe, up from 1-2 a month) - and make more friends in dungeons - that I ever did before RDF.
Real ID friends were added in Wrath with Ruby Sanctum. so maybe yes to that last anyways. And as it is added now, it’s not much of an argument.
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As I said:
It’s a generalisation, I know, but I still think it’s a valid one. Even that defamed 1.12 is mostly adjustments, fixes and consolidation (and a nerf of ZF 
)
Thats all nice and dandy, hows it going to fix issue that happened 15 years ago tho ?
Your arguments are cool, it would be awesome to have “classic” games again, not some crappy loot pinatas for people with 5second attention span …
But that damage is already done …
Removing RDF wont suddenly turn this game into dwarf fortress, same as adding it wont suddenly fix all issues … but in current state of game, with current community and player mentality, having RDF will make the game only better …
AAAAAND thats all considering you are doing any changes … noone asked for changes, most people just want wotlk the way it was, there would be half the spam there is, if blizz just added it at later date and people could enjoy their "Social Interaction™ " at start of the game and then later rdf would be added for the rest of people as a simple catchup mechanics …
All we got is blizz again with their “you think you do” … and if you really think that blizz is doing this to “save the people” and not just for long term profit then there is no helping you …
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