WoW is P2W - Do you agree?

[Exiasee-eonar (Exiasee)]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

Quick aside given the typical complaint in the case of P2W is it devalues players achievements, you’d think the players who dislike P2W were it to exist would be the ones whose achievements / accomplishments are being devalued?

Yet I’ve never seen a mythic raider, high key pusher, or high end PvPer complain about this. It’s always people who don’t have said accomplishments, or who loudly proclaim they would have them if they weren’t so demotivated by the game supposedly being P2W.

Because Blizzard has done something very genius inventive with the token:

• The players who are annoyed by others having access to what they do through P2W means are naturally the ones who can achieve/earn without P2W.
• Boosters are a subset of the above group, because for someone to boost someone else, the first someone needs to be able to do it himself.
• So why offer those service if there was nothing in it for them. Well there is! Through the token they can play the game without paying real money! All they need to do is simply make enough gold boosting others. Essentially any objection they’d have from other players being able to P2W their way through the game is “bribed” in the form of… playing for free!
• And that’s the circle of the token: Players who cannot for whatever reason earn something through their own (in-game) means pay extra real money to fund the playtime of the boosters. And the boosters are more than happy to do it since they have others pay for their playtime, so they swallow any pride and objection they’d have from achievements.

Which is exactly why Blizzard is also so adamant at having superhard modes that reward time-limited exclusive stuff. If the achievements and mounts remained after a season ended, a lot of players who buy boosting services right now would simply wait to outgear the content and overpower it, which would mean massively reduced boosting services.

[Dabo-ravencrest]

@Exiasee-eonar

The players who are annoyed by others having access to what they do through P2W means are naturally the ones who can achieve/earn without P2W.

This isn’t a thing I have multiple characters at ilvl 528/529 and I couldn’t give a damn if someone’s boosted, outside of them sucking and not wanting them in my group. But I would never be jealous of someone who bought their achievements, who cares. I don’t care if a casual player is decked out in full mythic gear… It just doesn’t matter.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Ayellin-kazzak

By having gold trading being a thing you have gold sellers this creates the opertunity for EVERYTHING that makes you think it is P2W.

Again, the difference lies in whether gold buying is allowed under the Terms of Use or not.
It used to be against the Terms of Use and was therefore considered cheating.
Now it’s allowed under the Terms of Use through the facilitation of the WoW Token on the Online Store.

@Ayellin-kazzak

FALSE you could and i STRESS this AGAIN BUY A PLAYERS ACCOUNT WHO ALREADY HAD DONE THIS

This was and is still considered a breach of the Terms of Use and is therefore cheating.

Again, for the millionth time: Cheating is cheating and if Blizzard deems something to be cheating then it’s cheating even if some players do it anyway.
The whole discussion around P2W revolves around the fact that Blizzard legitimizes gold buying through the WoW Token and player services like boosting as well. It’s not cheating and everyone are free to do it.

@Ayellin-kazzak

And i am not defending blizzard you LITERALLY NEVER EVER need to buy gold in this game if you just play the game.

And yet so many people buy gold anyway.
I wonder why?
What can they possibly use all that gold on that they don’t need?

Again, the argument is dumb. There’s no discussion to be had about whether you need to buy gold or whether you can play without being boosted. Fact of the matter is that lots of players do buy gold and lots of players do buy boosts. So it’s happening. Right now lots of people are getting Heroic Fyrakk kills because they paid some dude some gold. That’s the reality of WoW, regardless of whether it’s needed.

@Ayellin-kazzak

You have not bought up ONE single point about gold selling that would fix

But that’s not what the discussion is about?
The discussion is about whether WoW is P2W or not, and I have argued that it is, and I have elaborated as to why.
I have not gone into this discussion to provide solutions for Blizzard on how to combat third-party gold sellers or cheaters or anything else, because that’s not what the discussion is about. And it would also be a moot discussion, because Blizzard already sells gold themselves, so that battle for game integrity is long since lost.

@Elahra-mograine

And why should I care?

I don’t know? I don’t particularly care much about WoW as a game design construct these days myself. Blizzard can do as they want, who cares, right?

But as far as the discussion is concerned, I still think it’s worth calling a spade a spade and recognize the scope and consequences of Blizzard selling gold and allowing boosts in the game, among other things. Because they are pretty insane when you think about it. The power of the credit card has never been bigger in WoW than it is today. And it will likely only get bigger as time goes. That should be recognized, I think.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Jito-turalyon

The power of the credit card has never been bigger in WoW than it is today.

What power?

The power to watch others play the game instead of playing it yourself?

To have gear that you can’t really put to use because you suck at playing the game?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Elahra-mograine

What power?

The power to watch others play the game instead of playing it yourself?

To have gear that you can’t really put to use because you suck at playing the game?

Yes and yes.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Exiasee-eonar

The players who are annoyed by others having access to what they do through P2W means are naturally the ones who can achieve/earn without P2W.

Except none of the ones who can achieve / earn the thing without P2W are the ones complaining. It’s always people with little to no experience in the content or who deflect by saying things such as “I would do it if P2W didn’t exist”.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

Except none of the ones who can achieve / earn the thing without P2W are the ones complaining.

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas (that’s another analogy), and top players who are the boosters and not going to complain about boosting. That whole gold buying → boosting economy is quite lucrative to them. Why would they complain about that?

Aren’t the top guilds doing boosts like crazy to facilitate their own World First Races?

It’s not 9 year old Timmy who started playing last week who’s boosting you through Heroic Amirdrassil.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Jito-turalyon

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas (that’s another analogy), and top players who are the boosters and not going to complain about boosting. That whole gold buying → boosting economy is quite lucrative to them. Why would they complain about that?

Sorry I should have clarified I didn’t mean people actively participating in boosting are actively encouraging boosting with public statements on forums. I meant the people complaining on forums are not people who typically have those achievements.

More people engage with high end content across all 3 disciplines and don’t boost than do. You’d just think the people who have something to lose (The value of their accomplishments) would be the ones complaining, no?

[Succubus-frostwhisper]

Do you even read what you write before posting it? Jesus…

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

I meant the people complaining are not people who typically have those achievements.

So like if I were to complain about people being boosted through Heroic raiding despite the fact that I don’t do Heroic raiding myself, and yet the people who do Heroic raiding aren’t the people complaining?

I don’t see why that matters?

Surely the reward is being undermined by boosting regardless of whether you have already obtained it, whether you’re trying to obtain it, or whether you’re not and are now more distanced between those who have it and you who don’t.

Because as a super casual player I would certainly complain from the perspective that boosting erodes the layers of players you ought to have, which isolates the bottom more from the top. The scrubs, the casuals, the mid-tier, the try-hards, the semi-progression, the hardcore, and the top folks. There’s a hierarchy to it. Or there used to be. Now there’s the hardcore and the top folks and the people using their credit cards, and they’re all a bit the same in that they have all the fancy rewards – either because they’ve earned them or because they’ve bought them. And then there’s the rest of us. So you either step up your game now so you can join in on all the fun everyone else are having, or you use your credit card and get there with a shortcut – which is what I suspect many people do. After all, they need the gear and the feat of strengths and the clears to get into groups. So they get boosted, because it’s easier than making the climb by normal means. And when so many resorts to boosting and move across the player spectrum in an instant, then it pressures everyone else into doing the same.

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Jito-turalyon

Now it’s allowed under the Terms of Use through the facilitation of the WoW Token on the Online Store.

And by doing so they have basically REMOVED a industry where thousands of people had 9-5jobs that was gold farming or hacking other accounts.
You love to ignore this.

@Jito-turalyon

This was

This is 100% WRONG period.
The terms of service was changed BECAUSE this was happening.

I was there when this happened.
You do not seem to know about it.

@Jito-turalyon

The whole discussion around P2W revolves around the fact that Blizzard legitimizes gold buying through the WoW Token and player services like boosting as well. It’s not cheating and everyone are free to do it.

Again you seem to NOT be willing to understand the POSITIVE change this represent.

@Jito-turalyon

Fact of the matter is that lots of players do buy gold and lots of players do buy boosts.

Yeah dumb people do this.
or people who already have the money that it is no problem to do so.

@Jito-turalyon

Right now lots of people are getting Heroic Fyrakk kills because they paid some dude some gold

Anyone who does this is DUMB AS ALL HECK.
anyone doing this are not just fools but straight up stupid people.

@Jito-turalyon

and I have argued that it is

Your whole argument point is this: Because you say it is P2W you ignore the actual reasons you think that just because something was against the ToS NO one did do it when the REALITY the FACTS are that MILLIONS of USD was spent on this EVERY SINGLE DAY because of the very low chance of being caught.

Blizzard did something to combat this and it WORKED but you are NOT going to even consider this FACT.

@Jito-turalyon

so that battle for game integrity is long since lost.

Again if i follow your way of thinking the games integrity was lost in VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Jito-turalyon

Surely the reward is being undermined by boosting

I obtained all 3 elite sets from DF for my priest. Do I care if someone else obtained them, whether it be by getting boosted or getting them by playing themselves in a later season(not possible currently but I think it should be)? No. I obtained them because I liked how they look.

Likewise with the MoP CM sets. They could bring them back for all I care and make people just have to clear the dungeons on heroic mode and then they get them, wouldn’t affect me a single bit. I didn’t get the CM set for prestige, I got it because I liked how it looked.

I got the duelist enchant in season 3 because I thought it could fit nicely with some druids mogs, so I went and got it. Do I care if someone got it through getting boosted? Absolutely not. I got it because I wanted it to fit with some druid mogs.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Ayellin-kazzak

And by doing so they have basically REMOVED a industry where thousands of people had 9-5jobs that was gold farming or hacking other accounts.
You love to ignore this.

Ignore? I don’t think it’s been brought up before.

But it’s true what you say. And it’s good.

That they’ve then instilled their own version of the same is not so good.

So it’s perhaps a case of: “The operation was successful, but the patient died.”

@Ayellin-kazzak

Again you seem to NOT be willing to understand the POSITIVE change this represent.

I don’t think the game has improved for the better by Blizzard selling WoW Tokens and facilitating in-game boosting.

I just don’t.

I think it was better before.

If you approve of this new modern WoW with gold buying and boosting, then that’s fair enough. To each his own.

@Ayellin-kazzak

the REALITY the FACTS are that MILLIONS of USD was spent on this EVERY SINGLE DAY because of the very low chance of being caught.

In my opinion it’s better that gold buying and boosting is considered cheating and exists in the shadows and the dark corners of the community where players can perhaps find their way with a little fear of getting banned for giving in to that temptation.

Rather that than officially facilitating gold buying and boosting as a legitimate way to play and popularizing it to the masses in an unhealthy way that let’s Blizzard’s corporate machinery prey on their psychology and milk them for all the money they can.

But again, to each his own.

@Ayellin-kazzak

Again if i follow your way of thinking the games integrity was lost in VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT.

I’d say when Blizzard introduced the Celestial Steed in 2010 foundations were placed for where we are today. But when the WoW Token came out in 2015 was probably the tsunami that destroyed the game’s integrity entirely.

There’s a very clear before and after the WoW Token in terms of how WoW is played and experienced by the playerbase at large.

@Elahra-mograine

Do I care if someone else obtained them, whether it be by getting boosted or getting them by playing themselves in a later season(not possible currently but I think it should be)? No.

Would it be an outrageous idea to suggest to Blizzard that they just mail us all the new transmogs in every patch if we click a button that says: “Give me all new transmogs.”
I mean, after all, we can easily obtain them by getting a boost, and no one cares about that. So why not give them to us for free, so we can save some money?

Little tongue in cheek, but why not? If you don’t care how others obtain their rewards, why not just hand all rewards out for free to those who might want them.

Or allow people to hack and mod WoW? Why not? You can still do your own thing and take pride in your personal wins. So why not allow others to play as they please and instantly obtain any rewards through whatever means they want?

[Beerwolf-sunstrider (Beerwolf)]

You can easily make 20-30k per week from just doing the gold WQs for half an hour. You can multiply that per alt.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

We need to be a bit carefull with the OP. It sounds like he does not know what fun means since he asks for a definition or something what it is. And he definitely never hanged out a whole night with friends doing absolutely nothing and still having the best time of his life.

He bought a curve boost and hopes he won the game. He now wants gratification for his curve achievement. Without this topic we would have never known he had curves. He even checked us and said 80% of the players here do not have it. He wants to feel good.

pat pat pat

[Zantria-argent-dawn]

No no, we cannot speak because we are not CE 0,1% players and also happen to have a different opinion.
Thatd not something that can be tolerated, its agree or die with Mr Xyao Communist.

[Exiasee-eonar (Exiasee)]

This discussion exploded in so many directions but one thing is clear: We have silently agreed (as a playerbase) on the heavy monetization of game’s content beyond the box price and the subscription. The example with the boiling frog that someone mentioned is amazingly fitting here.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Exiasee-eonar

This discussion exploded in so many directions but one thing is clear: We have silently agreed (as a playerbase) on the heavy monetization of game’s content beyond the box price and the subscription. The example with the boiling frog that someone mentioned is amazingly fitting here.

Some players not playing a game for the fun of playing a game does not constitute it being heavily monetized through boosting.

There’s nothing that other players can obtain by paying for it that I can’t if I put my mind to it if I want it. It’s just a question of if I can be bothered to deal with all the BS and the time it takes.

At best you could call it “pay for faster progress/convenience”, not “pay to win”.

I’ve played games that ARE pay to win. And WoW is nowhere close. Players that didn’t pay was nowhere close to the people who did pay in those games and it was impossible to keep up with them if you didn’t pay. You could be playing all the hours you’re awake and you still wouldn’t get close to them.

[Herpderp-silvermoon]

Seems to me the OP and a few others are determined to just continually dig deeper into their holes about PTW. In the Op’s case it’s clear that person is somehow trying to justify using boosts to have gotten where they have.

PAY TO WIN… win what exactly? What has anyone actually won in this game? Especially with gold. You might achieve something, thats great. If it was rio rating or a raid title you got from being boosted, that was not won. That is just someone being lazy, lacking in effort or skill. You won a loot roll? Congrats on RNG being on your side.

You beat someone in PVP? Was that due to skill, or did you get boosted and now have the gear to smash low geared people. GZ again, you did not win anything.

I’ve seen some responses where those that have said they play the game for fun. Not about winning. Or getting their rio, titles and achievement’s by working for them, rather than buying them. Those of you including op who then poo poo that sort of sentiment miss the point about self reward. People do it the "hard way for self fulfilment, self satisfaction. A feeling of earned or achieved something the right way.

If people want to pay for boosts or buy gold, I could not care less.

Those same people trying to then justify or somehow make others feel that by not paying for boosts are stupid or just fools… You will never get it, you are the welfare children who want to be handed everything and I despise you.

The day Blizz introduces a means of paying to directly influence player power that can only be bought. Will be the day I delete the game.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Zantria-argent-dawn

No no, we cannot speak because we are not CE 0,1% players

I mean I am and I agree with you, if he’s making some performative attempt to belittle your opinion I’ll make an equally performative attempt to empower it. Not because or in spite of me agreeing, but purely because the OP is the type of person it seems that would annoy.