When I discuss with people who have strong arguments I usually get long replies with detailed rebukes and points made with strong conviction.
When I discuss with people who have been verbally beaten into the ground I usually get small nonsensical replies and ad hominem attacks as they’ve been reduced to nothing.
The narcissistic part of me likes the latter, because it means I won. 
(putting phone aside now and closing eyes!)
Also, lion: 
And this is my win condition. I win.
Now…why did you have to send Jito to bed?
It was getting soo goood! 
You didn’t provide me anything with which I can reply to because they were straying from the topic at hand, Jito, but we’ll agree to disagree on both the topic and whatever tangent was taking place, for the sake of being able to go asleep and not pick your phone up to reply over a stupid internet argument.
Despite Jito and I not agreeing, I don’t believe they should be staying awake for the sake of a meaningless debate, so I am glad they have decided to get sleep instead, and I would have stopped after my last reply to them too.
I know that, I was talking about your AH example. Now, what you describe as a reply is far away from making gold in “5 min.” and casual friendly. That was my point… If you can manage required time to do weeklies and do it with an alt army, it is far away from being a casual. It is more than that, and if it is the case, there are loads of possibilities to make gold.
It puzzles me that people take the word “win” so literally here. It is a shorthand, a figurative term used to critique various types of games, including MMOs. It describes the ability to gain advantages or achieve in-game goals through real-life monetary means. It’s not about a final victory, but about the advantages and shortcuts that money can buy. It’s about how paying money helps “smooth out” or “skip” parts of the process entirely.
Do people take the saying “money helps you win in life” literally too? So the one who wins is first on the podium? What does he win? Does he beat life? Or is he able to do whatever he wants and thus has a huge advantage over those who do not? And we are just, for the sake of brevity, calling it “winning”?
It seems obvious to me that those “official dictionaries” some people refer to do not factor in MMORPGs, in that they are not context-specific. MMORPGs, if WoW can still be considered one, have social hierarchy as a key tenet. You can rise higher in that hierarchy through your in-game efforts (reflected in the achievement system) and skill. Just like in real life, social capital provides shortcuts. Knowing someone who is willing to help you out gives you an opportunity to rise higher in the hierarchy. This could be classified as charisma, good genes, generational luck, or something similar. The point is, you can’t just enter a cheat code in life.
You cannot exhaustively beat an MMORPG, but gaining advantages through means you were not either “spawned with” or did not earn is the MMORPG version of “winning.” In that sense, if I farmed or earned eight million gold for Mythic Fyrakk in the game and paid a stranger to bring me with him, it is not P2W. But if I type in /console buy8milwithRLmoney, thus bringing something into the game world that does not belong there to gain advantages over others I would not have otherwise been able to gain, it is P2W.
The chasm in how people understand the term also largely stems from whether we still think of this as a real MMORPG. I think it is not, as the removal of server communities, the Dungeon Finder, and the introduction of the token have ensured this.
What can u buy some pve mounts and gear, what do u win from that.
Sure u win that mounts but the gear gets replaced every patch.
Sigh, this topic again. With your guys logic wow has always been P2W from day one and any game with an economy is also P2W.
If your claim that if you can buy gold and from that buy to character power (items, boots etc) is P2W you also have to acknowledge you could do so in Vanilla, classic and any other MMO that has an actual economy within its game.
Dont get this confused with actual P2W when you can only get the best items realistically by buying them directly from the game store.
If your claim is “but then you have to go to a third party and therefore vanilla was not P2W” The effects and outcome are exactly the same.
People bought gold in vanilla from shady websites.
Cross-faction and cross-realm was the best thing that could’ve happened to WoW. I can play with my friends no matter what server they’re on, no matter the faction they’re on. The only bad is that I still can’t queue LFD with them if they’re on the opposite faction.
I have friends that refuse to play alliance because they don’t like the models. I can still play with them now while playing alliance myself. Previously I could only play with them when I played horde chars.
For pugging cross-faction it was also really nice, I had to reroll horde in SL because it was just impossible to play the game outside of friends being online on alliance side because there were so few keys up.
For everyone else arguing about what is PTW.
A majority feel PTW in any online game is where a player can buy an advantage over others, that the others cannot obtain unless they also pay for it.
So yes, you go ahead and buy a mount that is only available in the shop (until they then go ahead and release it in game as they have with some). To those that think having exclusive mounts is a win… they paid to win. Thats dependant of player perception.
An example of a step in real PTW would be if Blizz decides to sell bullions in the shop. Allowing players to directly buy items that can increase a characters power and abilities. It’s still not full PTW but gets dangerously close to it and a great many players would feel that is a step too far.
Real pay to win is when they directly sell an item, say a legendary weapon that gives you more power than any other player who has not bought the same or equivalent item. No other item that can be earned in game will match it or give as much power. Therefor by using the item, you are paying with the intent to win.
How anyone feels good about themselves or actually think they won anything if they pay to win in these cases. I fail to understand. It’s like athletes who dope themselves or say they changed sex in order to win, self delude themselves.
I’d argue against you about gold having no value.
Time is possibly the most valuable commodity in the world. As is it always running out. You only have so much time and how you spend it affects what else you could do. That and you will never know exactly how much time you will have in your life.
In game gold can buy you time. Game time, timed saved not farming mats to make something etc. Boosts, though contentious just save time, gives you time to do other things. Though in most cases it’s more a case of the individual does not have the skill to achieve the level the boost may give.
So to me, gold has a lot of value. I don’t spend hours farming. I earn gold and simply buy from the AH, from those that spent time farming.
I thought you were trolling but that is just pure ineptitude. Gold is everything in WoW.
Counterargument: The definition is invalid (or more appropriately outdated) in today’s video game scene because P2W does not need to center explicitly around combat mechanics and damage meters. For example video games exist that have no combat at all, like those stupid Nikki dress-up games. You can buy dresses there with real money to avoid the grind in the game itself and win competitions against other players.
According to the dictionary definition you post, it cannot be considered P2W because not only is there no combat involved (no, the ingame avatars do not fight enemy wolves or gather bear behinds) nor is there an absolute numerical value to define how “beautiful” and “elegant” a dress-up combination (it’s a player vote thing). Which is false because a player literally spent real cash to avoid an in-game grind and massively increase their chances at winning in a dress-up competition. But even then, it is entirely possible to spend real money on such dresses and still end up last because you don’t know how to properly dress up. That doesn’t mean you didn’t pay to win; you paid but didn’t win but the game is still P2W!
But those are not official activities. They are not officially supported by Blizzard.
So you can’t count those things. Players came up with them themselves. They don’t actually mean anything or give you some special reward in the game.
Well, if you consider it winning, sure. But many, many other players do not.
I consider paying not to play, losing. Because you obviously don’t enjoy the game you’re supposed to be playing, if you’re paying someone else to do it for you.
Boosting is also not an official part of WoW. It is also something made up by players.
Players ruin things. Not the game. Players are the problem here. Well, certain types of players, anyway.
I don’t see the word ‘combat’ in that definition.
It says weapons, which, sure, are related to combat.
But it also says ‘abilities’, which doesn’t necessarily mean combat.
Also, it says ‘etc’. Meaning, there’s lots of things you could add to that list. Among which could be ‘dresses’, like in the example you used.
I think the term ‘advantage’ is the most important thing there. That’s what you should be focussing on. And for WoW, I don’t think there’s an advantage that you have over other players with the things you can pay for.
Funniest part about this thread is that 90% of people here thinks that other players are buying WoW tokens… when in reality, they are buying it, but from different vendors if you know what I mean. That, for a fact, happens in pretty much every other mmo.
Let me be clear. It does not depend on player perception.
P2W is frowned upon because of the consequences it has on gameplay.
For example :
You got a whale that spent 3000$ or more on a real P2W game. What would that look like in WoW?
Imagine You pay 3000E and you get a fully beefed out toon from MoP remix (the ones that can solo HC raids on their own). You get that toon with all its gear (including a maxed out cloak) transferred to retail.
And then that guy starts playing PvP. Just 1-shoting everyone while being immortal. Then he gets bored and tries some retail PvE. He walks in Mythic raid solo. And 1-shots the bosses in the Mythic raid.
And anyone that has not payed 3000E cant do that. They get regular toons.
Conversely. If you cant buy player power, only cosmetics… sure… you would see some people with really cool mounts. But they would die just the same in PvP and would not have any advantage over you in PvE.
That is why buying player power with $$ and or cosmetics are objectively distinct. And not subject to player interpretation.
Simply because the effect it has on the game are different.
But look. To be fair.
There 1 ONE activity that was P2W in wow. It was GDKP system from classic, which got reanimated for SoD.
Because there you can buy gold with tokens, and straight BUY gear from the raid. You don’t depend on RNG like everyone else.
FYI : In classic it existed before tokens. And finally died when Masterloot was discontinued (for this reason among many others).
BUT :
gamespot .com/articles/blizzard-bans-a-controversial-way-to-obtain-gear-in-new-wow-classic-season/1100-6520703/
It got banned in SoD. The last place ML system still survived. Because it affected gameplay.
There.
The ultimate goal is rarely power. Power is a means to something else, and it can be cosmetics for player A, a mount for player B or a sense of belonging to the top for player C.
All of that can be achieved by token-buying. Social hierarchy is the cornerstone of games like WoW.
But is not just a matter of power vs cosmetic.
Gold is the key to this game.
Wanna seriously raid or m+ and need consumables? Need gold.
Need crafted gear? Level up profession? Yup, gold.
Dont have time to raid or wanna commit months of your life wasting nights with 19 apes hoping you get a CE mount? Yup, again, gold.
There is this gigantic circular argument around this “win” word, but is rather pretty simply.
Buying gold WIN you time.
Time not spent farming.
Time not spent grinding a profession.
Time not spent farming golds
Time not spent pugging high keys for gear.
Time not spent raiding for specific bis for keys.
This “i dont pass my controller to watch others play” i see some people babbling here is literally stupid. Because people do actually, everyone buying gold pass the controller to someone and come back half a milion richer. And with that half milion you can skip part of the game you dont like to compete in others you do.
The fact that you can compete in wow without token does not prove anything because i can bet whatever you want that if you got 2 accounts to play the same expansion, one starting with level 1 and 0 gold, the other level 1 but with “infinite” gold, the 2 playthroughs would look so different, and in the second one people will gladly use the gold to cut the inconvenient part of the game.
It may not be P2W in someone personal, specific, definition. But pretending that swiping your card does not give you advantages is outright asinine especially if you are a veteran, and i have seen plenty playing dumb in this topic.
No. There is no purchases, exclusive to cash shop, that make you able to play the game. Like pets that picks loot, transmogs with stats, exp scrolls, extra loot tokens, exclusive content avaliable for $ only.
Also, theres nothing to win